Secret Conversation Time OC Notes! If you get a cool idea, you can add it here!
[Added a large WIP Proposal titled Crazed Rambling With Paimon IV: Let's Talk About EVERYTHING AT THE SAME TIME! 6/23. It covers some minor and major overhauls of... Basically everything. I did it all in one night during a schizo rampage, so please forgive my autism.]
[Added a large WIP section under "Crazed Rambling with Paimon III: Let's Talk Classes 5/11". The section is for the subclasses/perks related with each class.]
[New Proposal Added: ""Crazed Rambling With Paimon III: Let's Talk Classes! 5/11" (This is just a rework of my old class chart. Nothing exactly special or innovative.)]
- CYOA Choices
- Lore
- Other Elements
- Discussion: Proposals And New Ideas!
- New Proposals
- Crazed Rambling With Paimon IV: Let's Talk About EVERYTHING AT THE SAME TIME! 6/23
- Crazed Rambling With Paimon III: Let's Talk Classes! 5/11
- Crazed Rambling With Paimon II: Let's Talk Specific Races! 5/7
- Paimon's Crazed Rambling! 5/5
- Late Responses to Thread and proposal for introduction text while we are WIP 5/4 Ouroboros
- Inner Soul and Race zig-zag 5/1 (Ouroboros)
- Terminology and misc 4/30 (Ouroboros)
- Accepted
- Scrapyard
- Transcript of initial idea
CYOA Choices
[The World is a mix of JRPG and Portal Fantasy, where multiple fantastical worlds have come in contact, gone to war, and experienced great change.]
[The player of the CYOA is a soul passing through the cycle of reincarnation of the Human Realm. Officially, the Goddess reviving them is doing so as an act of mercy, but the truth is that they're searching for remnants of the old human race by reviving random souls before the cycle of reincarnation wipes them clean. Said Goddess also isn't in control of the spell as the will of the world is resisting them- thus why the player can make choices blatantly hostile to the Gods and still be revived.]
[This Section should slowly transition from initial placeholders to only stuff that's been discussed and accepted, and later from that to actual items that will be in the CYOA.]
Table of Content for the actual CYOA
Inner Soul: Initial exposition of the 3 realms and cosmology, setting the mood
Character Building:
Races
Class
Skills
Inner Soul/Avatar
[Where is your character's soul from? Regardless of what race they are, what are they on the inside?]
[Gives Discount on the associated system (Devil & Race, God & Class, Human & Skill)]
Races
[A power from the Demon Realm based on evolution through consumption. Races advance and become more powerful by killing and harvesting other organisms.]
[Divided by categories based on origin. Human and Beast Races are from the Human Realm. Demon and Dragon Races are from the Demon Realm. Divine and Undead Races are from the God Realm. Fey and Monster Races are recent mutations born from the 3 worlds mixing together.]
[After reaching certain milestones in development, an individual can evolve into an entirely different race while retaining the benefits of their former races. Changes in appearance very between instances of evolution. Sometimes one's appearance changes completely, other times it barely changes at all.]
Race List
[Currently up for debate. Moved old chart to Scrapyard.]
Classes
[A power from the God Realm based on empowerment through tradition. Classes advance by overcoming trials and following in the footsteps of their predecessors, or though setting new precedents yourself and being recognized for them.]
[Divided by categories based on skillset. Melee is about punching things. Magic is about using energy within you to perform strange phenomena. Faith is about invoking the power of greater entities than yourself to perform strange phenomena. Wisdom is about using your wits to indirectly achieve a goal. Hybrid classes straddle the line between two categories. Each Class has 2 minor perks and 1 large perk you can purchase if you take the class.]
[After reaching certain milestones in development, an individual can undergo a Class Promotion Ceremony to aquire a new class while retaining the benefits of their old classes.]
Class List
[Working on a proposal on this similar to Race, but replacing Perks with Subclasses. If you are attached to this, discuss.]
| Tier | Melee | Magic | Faith | Wisdom | Melee+Magic | Magic+Faith | Faith+Wisdom | Wisdom+Melee | Melee+Faith | Magic+Wisdom |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Tier 1 | Warrior | Mage | Priest | Scholar | Spellsword | Shaman | Ranger | Rogue | Monk | Trickster |
| Tier 2 | Martial Artist | Sorcerer | Healer | Blacksmith | Magus | Druid | Bard | Butler/Maid | Arcane Archer | |
| Tier 2 | Gladiator | Exorcist | Woodworker | Magic Knight | Warlock | Inquisitor | Archer | |||
| Tier 3 | Knight | Battlemage | High Priest | Chef | Medium | Miko | Dancer | Blood Knight | Monster Tamer | |
| Tier 3 | Berserker | Illusionist | Beast Tamer | Necromancer | Gambler | Pirate | Totem Berserker | Enchanter | ||
| Tier 3 | Duelist | Tailor | Psychic | Shapeshifter | Cavalier | Paladin | Artificer | |||
| Tier 4 | Samurai | Archemage | Oracle | Machinist | Nightblade | Blue Mage | Ninja | Treasure Hunter | Death Knight | Arcane Surgeon |
| Tier 4 | Warlord | Magical Girl | Summoner | Doctor | Evil Eye User | Onmyouji | Runecrafter | Assassin | Dragon Tamer | |
| Tier 5 | Weapon Specialist | Alchemist | Dragonblood Warrior | Dragon Rider | ||||||
| Tier 6 | Champion | Void Mage | Demiurge | Sage | Avatar | Hero | Dark Lord |
Skills
[A power from the Human Realm based on empowerment through knowledge and refining one's talents. Skills advance by furthering one's master and understanding of the topic.]
[Divided by categories based on the topic being grasped. Fairly straight forward, I think? Each Class has 2 minor perks and 1 large perk you can purchase if you take the class.]
[After reaching certain milestones in development, Skills can be combined to form more powerful skills that grant the benefits of both skills but can be further developed.]
[Variant Skills: It is possible to obtain minor variants of more common skills. For example 'Eastern Sword Arts' is a varient of sword skills with a more narrow focus of techniques. Varient skills are typically specialists that sacrifice breadth for depth. It is possible to have a varient skill and it's original version at the same time, but only one such skill is active at once. It is also possible to combine a Varient Skill with it's original version to create higher order skills. Such higher order skills are referred to as 'Pure Skills'. Like Varient Skills, Pure Skills have a narrower field of expertise in exchange for overperforming in a single skillset. Skills gained from a race or class can be changed to be a variant skills.]
[Some examples of Variant Skills include: Disguise Magic (a variant of Illusion magic specialized in applying illusions to the user), Monster Biology (a variant of Biology specialized in the bodily functions of monster type races), Blood Regeneration (a variant of regeneration specialized in restoring blood, popular with blood magi), Jeweling (a variant of smithing focused on accessories, such as rings, necklaces, etc.), Urban Stealth (a variant of Stealth specialized in hiding in city environments), Winged Flight (a variant of Flight specialized in using wings), Piercing Resistance (a variant of Physical Resistance specialized in resisting piercing attacks), Purification Magic (a variant of healing magic specialized in curing status effects), Chain Whip Arts (a variant of Whip Arts specialized in using a long chain as a whip), and Throwing Strike (a variant of Ranged Strike specialized in throwing a melee weapon).]
[Discussion under Proposals!]
Skill List
[Criticized this in a proposal but don't have an alternative chart yet. If you are attached, make it known.]
| Weapon Skills | Melee | Casting Attributes | Magic | Stats | Resistances | Crafting | Adventure? | Knowledge | MIsc |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Sword | Dash | Fire Magic | Summoning Magic | STR+ | Elemental Resist | Smithing | Cartography | History | Stealth |
| Shield | Guard | Water Magic | Enhancement Magic | DEF+ | Physical Status Resist | Alchemy | Navigation | Magic | Riding |
| Axe | Fast Strike | Wind Magic | Illusion Magic | AGL+ | Mental Status Resist | Woodworking | Parkour | Religion | Taming |
| Polearm | Heavy Strike | Earth Magic | Time Magic | MAG+ | Physical Resistances | Artifice | Swiming | Nobility | Music |
| Bow | Feint Strike | Light Magic | Space Magic | DIV+ | Enchanting | Flight | Biology | Lies | |
| Dagger | Ranged Strike | Dark Magic | Ritual Magic | LCK+ | Mechanics | Herbology | Sleight of Hand | ||
| Unarmed | Piercing Strike | Lightning Magic | Flight Magic | CHA+ | Cooking | Appraisal | Buisiness | ||
| Hammer | AoE Strike | Ice Magic | Detection Magic | HP Regeneration | Rune | Mathematics | Multitasking | ||
| Whip | Healing Magic | Meta Magic | MP Regeneration | Art | |||||
| Staff | Status Magic | Ocular Magic |
[Moved level point chart to Scrapyard. Under discussion.]
Lore
[Mostly to be considered as we refine the above section from raw mechanics to actual text, and a tool to order and explain them. Any world building goes here until we get to that.]
God Realm
[The Original home world of the Divine and Undead races, and the source of one of two forces that invaded the Human Realm. The God Realm grants it's denizens the power to become stronger through the class system.]
Gods
[A race that preaches the benefits of order and tradition and the need for authority.]
[Their names come from Indian mythology?]
Undead
[A race formed from a strange curse that reanimates the deceased.]
[Alternative proposal: Spirits] (Ouroboros)
Demon Realm
[The Original home world of the Demon and Dragon races, and the source of one of two forces that invaded the Human Realm. The Demon Realm grants it's denizens the power to become stronger through the race system.]
[The Demon Realm takes the form of a giant living organism.]
Demons
[A race that preaches survival of the fittest and the importance of self improvement.]
[Names based on the Ars Goetia?]
Dragons
[A race of proud, lizard-like beasts with very strong pride and a tendency to hoard treasure.]
Human Realm
[The home world of humanity, or rather the home worlds. The Human Realm contains 9 different worlds, each sharing the same will. It was invaded by the Demon and God Realms in an attempt to destroy the will of the Human Realm and take it's power for their own Realm's will. Despite humans losing that war, the Human Realm has instead been absorbing the the other two Realms. The Human Realm originally granted it's denizens the power to become stronger through the skill system, but by absorbing the wills of the other two realms it's become able to grant their Race and Class systems as well.]
New Humans
[Among the weakest of races, with a correspondingly low status. Now more than ever they need to band together, yet many of them continue to fight among each other.]
Old Humans
[The Human race from before the Gods and Demons invade the Human Realm. They were powerful enough that Gods and Demons, two bitter rivals, teamed up to meet humanities measure.]
[They have names based on famous thinkers of history, like Greek philosophers or scientists?]
Beast Races
[A race of human like beings with bestial traits. Known for being very loyal and physically capable.]
Fey
[A bizarre and whimsical race seems to view ethics as a foreign concept. They strongly value words and wordplay, and enjoy twisting the meaning of promises in horrific ways.]
[The Fey are born of a mixture of the God Realm and the Demon Realms.]
Monsters
[Less of a true race and more of a catch all for everything else in the world. There isn't any consistent culture among them, and individual monster races can only be judged on their own merit.]
[Monsters are born of a mixture of the Human Realm and the other two Realms.]
Other Elements
[Elements not yet worked into the Table of Content]
Party Building?
[insert Text?]
Exploration/Colonial Things?
[insert Text?]
Misc. World Building?
[insert Text?]
Other Important Topics?
[Insert Text?]
Discussion: Proposals And New Ideas!
[If something hasn't been discussed yet, then it goes here! This isn't a forum though, so discussing these proposals should probably be a secret conversation time topic. Don't feel like anything is set in stone! Literally anything can be changed.]
Proposal Management
[Things to bring up in Secret Conversation Time! I've begun to realize we often run out of topics to discuss, so that's the goal of this section. And, rarely, the few hours we get to discuss isn't enough for a topic. This is meant to assist with those things. It's a place to store topic ideas, so that when we run out of things to talk about, we can just pick something up over here and make the most of secret conversation time. It also means we can get an idea of what topics we might talk about ahead of time, that way we're prepared and bring more fully formed ideas to the table. Or you can add your own answers here, if that's your poison. That's what I did, so you have an idea of where I'm coming from on these topics.]
[Agenda for Discussion. To be honest, I'm not sure where to put this, so I'll just put it here. This is the things I plan to bring up for discussion. Just some minor secretarial snippet. The actual specifics are discussed below, I just wanted a small space to list them out plainly]
Major Topics
Race Mechanics: Climb VS Direct Buy
Budgeting: Settling on a Distribution
Specific Race Placement
Skill System - New vs Old
Minor Topics
Is T1 Race free? If it is, do we apply it to T1 Class and T1 Skill too?
Race Exclusivity (This is just recognizing that I misunderstood and that we can scrub that section)
Can we settle on 1 temp name? We can keep the other candidates around, but I'd really like it if we can call it something other than Secret Conversation Time OC, since we're not the only OC that uses that timeslot.
Perk system. Purchase or free? 1 per tier, 3 per purchase?
The 9 Human Realms - Should we give them their own names?
The Nature of the Worlds and Their Wills
Results From Yesterday
Race Weakness (Approved, Needs Details) (Move to Minor Topics)
We've voted on having a single racial weakness based on your final race, with a stated multiplier
Race Benefits (Approved, Needs Details) (Move to Minor Topics)
Accepted
Elemental System (Move to Minor Topics)
Needs more discussion. Should be added to topics
Will of the Human Realm (Approved) (Add to Human Realm Lore?)
We seem to have agreed on 9 independent wills cooperating.
Separation of Tiers (Approved) (Roll into next round of Race/Class proposals?)
We seem to have agreed that a T3 Human + a T3 Goblin is a T3 Human like goblin, not a T6.
Levels and Stats (Approved) (Should all be in the scrapyard already)
We've agreed to remove it
Doubling Down on Races/Classes (Move back to Minor Topics)
Nebulous Due to Climb VS Direction Buy
Budget (Ongoing Major Topic)
Needs Further Discussion
Terminology (Approved) (Add to each section of Race, Class, and Skill?)
Race is Tier, Class is Level, Skill is Grade?
Natural Tier vs Acquired (Approved) (Roll into next round of Race/Class Proposals?)
A T6 Human is on par with a T6 Dragon, but the latter has better perks?
Climb the latter vs Direct buy? (Ongoing Major Topic)
Needs Further Discussion
Meta
[Anything around the CYOA that isn't pertaining to content directly.]
Organization
[I just tossed this together and thought this was a nice look. If someone else feels they have a good way to organize the notes, or has feelings about the formatting, then those things can always be changed. Nothing is set in stone. Especially the race/class/skill lists- I'm not all that proud of them.]
Signatures (formerly author tags)
[Put down a name for yourself here so it can be 'credited' in the end and we got something to tag as and refer to in discussion when necessary. Refer to the original section note at the bottom for the long version. Not an invitation to namefag.]
Paimon
Ouroboros
Macha
Sir Dinadan
[How do we feel about tagging our proposals with some kind of author tag? As the creators, we'll be crediting ourselves at the end anyway, so why not think of some throwaway author name early on! When in doubt, you can use a name that'd be fitting for one of the 3 major factions you might want to worldbuild for, like an Indian God (Vishnu?) an Ars Goetia Demon (Aim?), or a famous Scholar (Socrates?). Until we decide, I'll just go with it. If we don't like that for anonymity reasons, I'll just scrub the tags I used. Or we can just not have a rule, and we can either tag or not tag as we please. Another option is to use different color boxes since I don't' think there's that many of us. Also dibs on Paimon.] (Paimon/Saberanon)
[Point in case!]
[Point in case #2!]
[Point in case #3!]
Names! We got some candidates! Which ones did we like?
[We got one for now: Astral Remnants]
Concerning proposal Ouroboros 4/29
Hey, I just had a cool idea for Classes! Hear me out!
[The concept of the divine realm is tradition and inheirtance, right? So what if the perks for classes are based on that theme? Instead of choosing your perks directly, you get perks based on what classes your promoted from! So a Gladiator that's last class was a mage would get a different perk than a Gladiator that's last class was a warrior. Hybrid Classes might allow the user to choose between either option, or maybe they'll have a strict option they're more considered to be. Not sure. Either way, what do you think? Is this a cool idea, or am I a dumb?] (Paimon)
[ It's an interesting idea. The problem being that we can't make perks for every single possible promotion, so our 2 options are either to have it based on the class type (melee,magic,faith,wisdom for now), or have a stricter promotion (so for example, a Gladiator can only evolve from X, Y, Z Class). But then you run into the problem of how to double down on a class when their perks are determined by what else you've chosen, which might be the real problem here] (Macha)
Major and Minor Currency (Crowns & Chains)
[Seems to have general approval. Let's add it if no one opposes it.]
[I will work it in in the next cycle. Already changed a lot in this run and don't want you guys to wake up to a whole new document.] (Ouroboros)
Budget Goals!
[What is our goal for budgeting? More accurately, baring any kind of drawbacks, what should a build be able to purchase? On a scale of (T6 Race + R6 Class + Multiple T6 Skills) to (A T6 Race, Class, or skill will take your entire budget). (Obviously both are bad extremes, but where in between do we want to land?]
[Personally, I feel like the upper limit of what's acceptable is being able to T6 Race and Class at the same time at the cost of having no skills, or Having a T6 Race or Class and 1-2 T6 Skills at the cost of having a T1 Class or Race. Without some serious drawbacks it shouldn't be possible to minmix beyond that point. On the lower end, I feel like if you spread out your points, T4 Race, T4 Class, and maybe 3-4 T4 Skills should always be affordable. Those the vague feelings I have about budget goals, and I imagine they're not all that useful, but hey, it's what I've got.] (Paimon)
[I had this in my proposal and the currency system is built around it. Tried to clarify how I calculated the pool and the significance of the distributions achievable globally. Current extremes are in the table below. This does not consider prudent use of Race Perks etc and is only the base we can calculate around. I think 2 T6s should only be possible by playing extremely well into the racial niche, for example a Divine Origin creature with 2 T6 classes or a Demonic Origin creature with 2 T6 races.] (Ouroboros)
[I do agree that T6 should be somthing that's rare and that the Crown distribution should reflect that, but only having enough to buy 2 T6s does seem to be a bit of overspecialization. So with the number of T6s more or less set in stone what comes next is the Chain expenses, it should be enough to grab a few skills/classes/races up to T3 so that characters have a good amount of abilities to support their niche or cover weaknesses, but not too many so that they won't have an out for every situation, what would be a good amount of those? It depends a lot on how big the jump from T3 powers to T4 is i imagine. ] (Macha)
| Tier | Case 1 | Case 2 | Case 3 | Case 4 | Case 5 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| T4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 6 |
| T5 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 0 |
| T6 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
Add Currency Conversion (Downward is easy, Upward is hard)
[Seems good, though exact implementation could be useful.]
[Had in mind that the implementation would happen via Perks. Will provide examples, but I think you will grow into it once I properly communicated the Currency.] (Ouroboros)
Remove Levels and Stats
[It's been brought up a bit, so let's set it to an informal vote or something. If we don't hear any opposition, then we'll move forward on the assumption that we should get rid of those.]
[In favor. Proposed "Levels" as terminology replacing "Tiers" for skills instead, to stay in touch with the original JRPG roots.] (Ouroboros)
[I agree. Naming the skill ranks as levels fits perfectly with the JRPG inspiration. Stats could appear somewhat as skills (like the strength skill example) but number autism always goes downhill] (Macha)
Doubling Down on races/classes
[Shouldn't have any opposition, so this is more of a formality. I try not to just add stuff into the main section on my own, just on the off chance I'm wrong about something being popular.]
[Can add this in the next cycle. Enough changes from me for now as said above.] (Ouroboros)
New 10 Race System
[Too big a decision to directly yea or neh on, so we should discuss it more. Talk about individual parts of it and see what we like and what we don't.]
Warning[What are you referring to here?]
[In case it wasn't clear by now, I was just talking about the first Ouroboros Proposal]
Let's get on the same page first!
[For starters, let's go through the exact process of buying a class with as little uncertainty as possible. Try not to get to into narratives/mythology/fluff. Just mechanics, as simple as we can describe them. Assume your target audience is Ling'er! Do your best to make it something even she can understand!]
[So, starting out, here's my understanding of it:]
[Step 1: What is the origin of your soul? Demon Realm, Divine Realm, or Human Realm? That determines what race types you can select. Additionally, if your Soul is from the Demon Realm, gain 1 crown for this section only.
Demon Realm Souls Have Access to [Insert list of race types]
Divine Realm Souls Have Access to [Insert list of race types]
Human Realm Souls Have Access to [Insert list of race types]
Step 2: Select your first race (T1) from among the races you have access to and pay the listed cost. (Probably free the first time since you don't have a choice). From here on out, you can stop at any time that you feel you are content with your race selection.
Step 3 (Optional): Purchase any perks listed under that race for their stated costs
Step 4 (Optional): Select a race from the race types available to you from Step 1 that is of the next tier or a lower tier to evolve to. You can evolve back into the same race again.
Step 5 (Optional): Select perks listed under that new race for their stated costs. Perks with identical effects stack. If you evolve into a race you've already been, you can purchase the same perks again.
Step 6 (Optional): Repeat from step 4 until you reach T6.]
[Does that sound different from what you imagined?] (Paimon)
[This should go into the CYOA Table of Contents section when discussed. My current understanding below.] (Ouroboros)
Step 1: Choose your Origin or Path. Either associates you with a Realm and grants a Crown (currency for t4/t5/t6) you can use only for the corresponding Secteion/system (Race Class Skill). Any Path has access to all Races: a Soul that took the Path through the Demonic Realm can slip straight into a Human or even Angel. It wont synergize as well with that choice though, which is the price one pays for incompatible choices. Maximum freedom is a necessity to not have a catalog of "Not allowed" bigger than actual choices.
Step 2: You have a pool of 51 Chains and 5 Crowns + 1 limited Crown (see above). You NEED to have a T1 Class, a T1 Race and a T1 Skill and those have to be bought (if you dislike this we can subtract 9 from the pool which would be the same as making it free. Would fuck my numerology up though).
Step 3: You select as many Perks as you have tiers in the Race, and some can be chosen multiple times. Some Races are more restrictive, some less. Being a higher tier is always a power factor, ie a T5 Elf is better than a T4 Elf at non-mechanical Elf things. In turn the T5 Warrior is better than the T4 Warrior. As everyone has a very restrictive pool of choices, the few high tier options should really matter.
Step 4: You can choose ANY race of ANY origin from ANY row and ANY column unless you are otherwise restricted. A T2 goblin with T1 angel and T2 undead is an undead goblin angel and will have traits and perks of all of them. Spending more on Race means you can spend less on Class and Skills so this should be done carefully to snatch up specific perks. This will have to be fleshed out once we have more numbers to work with.
Step 5: You can also buy your Race at a higher tier, which may be a prerequisite to unlock certain Perks in the first place. Perks themself are free (?) or allow you to spend currency at a better rate than normal.
[We will need to decide whether we want Race Tier to be global (ie a T3 Goblin + T3 Human is a T6) or specific to the Race. I thought it was the latter and built everything around that for now. Just like a T4 Swordsman isn't a T6 Fighter of any sort just because he also has T2 in Cooking.] (Ouroboros)
[I'm also of the opinion that if the cyoa is going to force you to have something, it must be free. If maintaining the numerology of points is important i don't see why not just keep it as is. Chains aren't the most important points of the cyoa, Crowns are because they are the resource the strongest options are locked behind, 9 more chains for T1-T3 options shouldn't be a problem.] (Macha)
[Example Builds: Let's try slapping together some skeleton builds. Obviously it's too early for real test builds. This is just about confirming how we understand the current proposals.] (Paimon)
Skeleton Build Based on Direct Buy
Race: Maou (T6), Demon (T3), Dragonkin (T2)
Class: Samurai (L4), Magic Knight (L2), Mage (L1)
Skills:
Sword Skill/Fire Magic (G4)
Regeneration/Invigoration (G3)
Status Resist (G2), Dash (G1)
Perk List?
Skeleton Build Based on Climbing Up
Race: Maou (T6), (??? T5) (??? T4) (??? T3) (??? T2) (??? T1)
Race: Demon (T3) (??? T2) (??? T1)
Race: Dragonkin (T2) (??? T1)
Class: Samurai (L4) (??? L3) (??? L2) (???L1)
Class: Magic Knight (L2) (Knight)
Class: Mage (L1)
Skills:
Sword Skill/Fire Magic (G4)
Regeneration/Invigoration (G3)
Status Resist (G2), Dash (G1)
Perk List?
Also for reference, an example of creating a skill under the original fusion system.
T1 + T1 = T2
Sword + Magic Knowledge = Anti-Mage Swordsmanship
Heavy Strike + Fast Strike = Critical Strike
Fire + Chantless Magic = Chantless Fire Magic
Invigoration + AGL+ = Tireless
T2 + T2 = T3
Anti-Mage Swordsmanship + Critical Strike = Mage Killing Swordsmanship
Chantless Fire Magic + Tireless = Free Form Fire Magic
T3 + T3 = T4
Mage Killing Swordsmanship + Free Form Fire Magic = Blazing Saber of the Church
Race Types and Exclusivity
[Secondly, let's talk about the lists mentioned in my first step up there. Originally, that wasn't a factor, and you could evolve freely to any category. This change is based on how I read the new race system proposal (and if I'm wrong, please tell me.) Assuming I'm not wrong about that, what should those lists be? Obviously, they'll have access to their own basic type.]
[The types were: Divine, Fey, Undead, Monsters, Human, Unnamed 1 (Modern Humans were in here), Rakshasa, Unnamed 2 (Dragons were in here), Demons, Unnamed 3 (No clue about that last one, honestly)]
[Personally, I feel like there should be 6 race types exclusive to origins, leaving 4 race types to be Origin Free. 3 each would be too much (only 1 left for Origin Free) and only having 1 per Origin with 7 Origin free sounds like too little.] (Paimon)
[To be exact, my Personal feelings on this are:]
[Demon Exclusive Access [Demonic, Unnamed 2, Rakshasa]
Divine Exclusive Access [Divine]
Human Exclusive Access [Human, Unnamed 1]
Origin Free
Fey, Undead, Monsters, Unnamed 3
Divine is the least incentivised to do race stuff, so they only got their own race type, plus they seem fairly monolithic in terms of race anyway. Meanwhile the Race System belongs to the Demon Realm, so they got an extra exclusive.] (Paimon)
[Refer to above.] (Ouroboros)
[Yeah, I just misunderstood and was rolling with it. I'm not even kind of attached. Let's scrapyard this.] (Paimon)
Specific Race Placement
[So here's another good topic, the placement of specific races. Do you feel like any races are too low in tier? Too high in tier? Did you like having the triad of some races, like with dragons, vampires, etc? Obviously, something like a lower tier vampire would be difficult with how the Undead race is set up under this new system, but fluff is meant to help shape the choices we offer, and fluff can be changed.]
[On my own end, I feel like Beastfolk shouldn't be monsters but rather in one of those Human related categories. That's probably the thing that stand out to me the most. Similarly, I'm not all that fond of the Vegetarian/Carnivore/Omnivore/Apex system. Mostly just because I don't feel the animal identiy is that strong a factor in racial strength. Just make an example, look at Apex Predator, a Lion Beastman would be T4 Minimum, where a Dragonkin would be T2 minimum- but is a lion more impressive than a dragon? I think the most basic Beastfolk (the kinds that are just humans with animal ears/tails) should be T1 so it's not much of a tax to be one of them, and the more animal-like versisons that look more like werewolves and the like can be T2. Above that we can find other beast related fantasy races, like werewolves (or werebears, wererabbits, etc.)
Past that, Dryad/Nypph, Ghost, Dire Beast, Golems, Dragons, Liches, Giants, and maybe even the Faustian Devils seem to high for my liking. Sure these things CAN be strong, but to me the minium should be lower. Take dragons for example, they can be extremely powerful, but putting them in T6 is like saying even the weakest dragon is on par with a Demon Lord. I'd like to at least bump them down to T5 and put some greater version of Dragons in T6. Probably the one that I'd want bumped down the most is Golems. I can readily accept T6 androids, but Golems should be down at least to T3 to accomodate for golems in the roughly person sized range- it's not like all Golems are 100 foot tall steel abominations after all. An 8 foot tall stone golem should be an option, as an example.
Vampires for the main race are probably sitting about right at T5, but I think a lesser version, something closer to a thrall with free will would be nice, maybe for T2-3.] (Paimon)
[Addressed in thread (hopefully). Apex predetors were not meant to be Beastfolk and rather stuff like Manticores or whatever. Didn't get down to the nitty gritty 6000 entries on purpose because I wanted there to be meaningful thematic relations. Proposed moving Beast people to Human (Universal) and to fill the cleared up space with Dungeon-style JRPG monsters. I vehemently oppose cluttering the Race list with a bazillion kinds of beastmen because they offer NOTHING in terms of triangulation if you want to choose multiple races. Werebeasts can be Animal People x Demonic Taint (dire) or Divine Taint (possession, like vampire). The rest I will break down my own placement below for.] (Ouroboros)
Dryad, Nymph: These are meant to be examples of a Fey whose role it is to guard a place. We can't have everything at every power scale, especially because players will completely ignore most of the weaker ones if they don't offer a niche mechanically or a strong theme. There's only so much we can do. As for the original placement, I didn't mean cookie cutter Monster Manual trashmobs I meant the Greek mythological nature spirit, Guardians of Groves, stuff like that. I focused on the Role and connection to Lore more than the specifica in any single entry.
Ghost: There's haunts anchoring to a location and Incorporal/unanchored spirits. Both of those can be used to make a ghost build of any tier.
Dire Beast: It's a manifestation of demonic energy. We can trade it with Succubus if you prefer.
Golems: a shorthand for "bigger android". Move them down, they really shouldn't be that high. Thought was to make the investment quite high but in retrospect that's the wrong way.
Dragons: Wyverns I used as shorthand for weak dragons, which added to. Real Dragons should be strong imo. Mind that my idea of A Demon Lord here was less Archfiend of the 69 hells and more a "Mahou", a Dark Lord type frm JRPGs and Anime, which is basically just a really strong sorcerer most of the time whose real danger is the fact they are a plain old warlord with an army. Thought was a major demonic possession, basically
In general I gotta say I am a little frustrated with input about this topic. The chart we had until now had the same entries over and over. Why would anyone invest into multiple races if the choices are Dragon and Bigger Dragon and biggest Dragon. it offers nothing for variety. I feel there's a fundamental philosophical difference here we will have to discuss first before we declinate through all this. Which is why I proposed a highly abstract skeleton in the first place. Do you want free race choices? Do you want to double down on a race? Do you want tree progression? Why would anyone double down on Vampire when Bigger Vampire is right there? I am confused. Also keep in mind this has to be translated into CYOA mechanics.
Faustian Devli: What I had in mind here is a "devil" that gets stronger by preying on people via satisfying their desires. Difference to succubi is that they just take the energy, these fuckers make you give it to them. They can be weaker, sure, but they still have the potential to be extremely strong with one scheme.
Greater Verstions: Something I see absolutely no purpose in. Progression trees or free choice. Can't have both without starting from scratch.
Vampire Thralls: Can be accomplished with a Skill. Vampires/Possessions can even be offered to take it or an equivalent for the other niches that option serves via a Perk.
We shouldn't get lost in flavorstuff before we know what we are going for mechanically. The niches I proposed are more important than the particular exampls.
[I completely agree that lesser/greater (X) can simply be axed no problem to make space for more interesting new options that actually mean a different/unique race is available. Some of those races that ended up in tiers way too high are just victims of there not being enough races to complete the tiers, if you have to skip from T1 to T3 it's very easy to end up with a great jump of power. It feels awful to have those gaps there so i hope we can fill them eventually. For example, for the "Guard a Place" role, something a Spriggan feels a lot better in T4, it's the the reincarnation of giant more or less, could send storms and the likes, a dryad could go lower in T2/T3. And the devils i very much like having the big strong demons in one family and the contract based assholes in another. ] (Macha)
[Maybe obvious, but the main point of having duplicate races was because it was founded on the Climb Up idea, where you buy T1, make it T2, etc. Literally evolving the race. It was there to give an obvious path to follow if that was desired. But even that could be made obsolete by better systems. For example, instead of having 3 forms of vampire, we could slot them at T4, and give them special perks specific to buying the race at T5 or T6, and it would be a much more elegant way to do the exact same thing. So yeah, I'm 100% on board with removing exact duplicates of the same race. I've seen the light, per se. Past that, for JRPG, I usually see Vampires and Dragons as being rivals on par with each other, with both being very strong, legendary beings. Meanwhile, the Demon Lord I was talking about is the Maou, and in most cases the Maou is the final boss of a JRPG- think Ganon or Dracula. They're usually stronger than other things- to the point that maybe they should be outright moved up to T7~9. Them being more of a sorcerous warlord is honestly pretty rare for me to see.]
[(Incidentally, Mahou just means magic. That's why Mahou Shoujo is magical girl - Magic + Girl. Maou is the term for the Demon King in JRPG stuff.) Super minor detail, but I figured I'd say something. Another fun side note- in MHA, AfO is often referred to as a Maou.]
New Skill System
[Similarly a bigger decision. Something to discuss. Do we like the idea of mashing together a lot of skills to make a big skill, or is it better to directly buy a few bigger skills and link them together?]
[I'd like to see the limit on skill fusion raised a bit. By how it looks, you could at most have a skill that's a composite of 3 things (via T3 Synergy and then T5 Synergy), but I'd like if the number was higher. For example, maybe the mastery vs synergy choices could be more common. Or maybe we could add a system were you can Synergize an extra skill for a higher cost- or maybe that can be a perk? Would 'When Synergizing a skill, add an extra skill' be a cool perk? Like maybe a high tier human race's big perk- something expensive and hard to get to. Is that a cool idea, or is it too much for a perk? Anyway, overall I like this new system because it's a more simple and streamline method to do the same thing my old fusion system did. You can have composite skils with a lot of options, or you can have very narrow skills with high performance in that narrow field.] (Paimon)
[Depends on what fusions even end up doing. In general I don't think we should raise it too far. It's just going to lead to meaningless lists imo. The Perk proposal works, I'd like to push that to Elves though.] (Ouroboros)
Misc. Clarifications? (Is there something you feel isn't clear and needs to be explained a bit more plainly?)
[I had a question about this passage: "As we have already discussed at length there need to be Human Universal races, Divine Races, and Demonic Races. Underconsidered until now has been the aspect of the multiple Worlds, which have distinct character (Worldsoul) and thus races. I propose the pool of available races to be based on those origins. The target world and origin world should be origins too, and if we ever choose to make another world for this that would get another (and maybe other corruptions)."]
[Specifically, I wanted to make sure we're on the same page with the worlds and the world souls. The Demon Realm has it's own World Soul. The Divine Realm has it's own World Soul. The Human Realm has it's own World Soul- that is to say all 9 worlds in the Human Realm share the same will and consciousness. That was my understanding of it, anyway.]
[My own was that each World of the 9 in the Human Realm has a World Soul. The Demonic Realm has the Will of the fuckhuge monster that's basically the "World" there and the Gods have the Will of the collective] (Ouroboros)
[for the skill synergy in the new proposal: In the example where you buy Sword & Board for T5, is that one purchase for 48 points? I don't think you mean buying two separate T5 skills for 48 a piece and using the boons from each to fuse them, but I wanted to make sure.]
[Hadn't thought that far. Now I would say that you have to buy both (?) and one has to declared the "Parent" or "Conduit" of that Fusion chain. We definitely need to offer another alternative so you don't pay twice for fusion and have something to get from the t3/t5 in the Fused Skill.] (Ouroboros)
[For the budget distribution, is 6 crowns including the 1 free crown from Origin? I.E. Does Origin bump the total up to 7?]
Topics for when there's nothing major going on
Race Topic / Unique Features
[What are some unique features for races? For example, there was an idea that once you evolve into an Undead, you can't evolve to anything else after that point, and that the Undead race had perks based on doubling down on old perks. What can make a race unique and help it stand out, either in terms of perks, CYOA mechanics, or even fluff?]
Race Topic / Perks and Descriptions
[Anyone is free to donate perk ideas or race descriptions to the list, but if we run out of things to discuss during secret conversation time, this is the ultimate back up plan. Pick a race, even if you're picking by random, and we can work together to workshop what the race is about. What does it look like? (Bonus points if you post an image!). Where does it live? What is it's culture? And of course, what are it's special abilities? It's a very big topic that needs a lot of work, so it's better to chip away at it earlier in my opinion. Maybe start the big races, like the Divines and the Demons?]
Race Topic / Racial Weaknesses
[Do we want to add on specific weaknesses for entire race types, like 'all Demon Races are weak to elemental light' and 'All Fey are weak to Cold Iron'? If we do, the prior decision was that those weaknesses stay with you even if your final race is different. So if you did (Imp, Pixie, Demon) You would be weak to both elemental light and cold iron even though your final race is demon. If we do this, what might each of the ten race types be weak to?]
[Personally, I'm fond of it, but I'm worried people will complain that 'obviously this is fucked because anyone with my weakness will instantly murder me!' as if the concept of overcoming a disadvantage isn't a thing, or some anon will just claim he always has every weakness on hand at all times, and it could snowball into a situation where all builds have access to all weaknesses, and the whole idea becomes meaningless. So even though I like it, I'm ultimately opposed to it since it seems like a rule that'll cause more trouble that it's worth. Of course, if we've got some good ways to control it, like maybe include an item sections or something, then there's room to reassess the notion. ] (Paimon)
[Speaking of which, if we do decide we need an item section, I'd vote we get a third currency for it. I find that unless it's some kind of irreplaceable legendary artifact, equipment just isn't realistically on the same level as personal strength for a fantasy setting because if you're strong enough, then non-legendary equipment can be easily obtained anyway.] (Paimon)
CYOA Proposals
Unique Skills
[Another function I originally had planned was Unique Skills. Normal Skills are things anyone can achieve with training, but Unique Skills are things that are simply impossible. In terms of lore, they were meant to be unique authorities granted by the will of the world itself. In terms of the CYOA, they are special cheat skills that you only get 1 of. Not sure if we want cheat skills or not, so I tossed that here] (Paimon/Saberanon)
Classes/Races/Skills
[If you've got an idea for a class, a race, or a skill and/or their abilities, or you just don't like one of the present ones and want it axed, this is the place to say something!]
Race/Class/Skill Descriptions
[Want to help with the little things? Add the flavor text for a race, class, or skill! (Aim for 300 characters or less?)]
[On top of the general description, we could use 3 perks for every race and class. Aim for 100 characters or less for each? Note that of those 3 perks, one should be noticeably better than the other two.]
[If some kind soul wants to order these better, that would also be really nice~]
[I translated this from Headers to text because it was bloating the Table of Content. Removed the empty ones but got them backed up and will add them again if you want me to. We are already messing with races and classes at a higher abstraction level and can get to this when we get to it. I appreciate the diligence though.] (Ouroboros)
Race Descriptions
[What exactly is the race? What kind of place would they like to live? What do other races think of them, and what do they think of other races?]
Human
Human [The most populous and xenophobic race. Sometimes considered powerful due to their numbers, but typically disdained as weakling due to low individual prowess. Humans have settlements in every corner of the world, each somehow ready to aid or backstab the others as need. +1 Any Skill]
Nobility [Members of human nobility possess greater aptitude for magic, often learning spells early in life. Arcane Spells are more potent]
Blessed [Beloved by the gods, some humans are skilled in the divine arts. These humans are born clerics. Divine Spells are more potent]
Ancient Human [The distant ancestors of humanity. Far more powerful but enable to evolve into any race but humans, no traces of their society remain]
Nephilim
Nephilim [Faithful servants of God. The Nephilim race lives life in accordance to a strict code of law, with each settlement's laws based on the god they worship. They're known for their skills as healers. Their settlements are very spread out, each formed around holy sites. +1 to Healing Magic]
Lie Detection [Some Nephilim are oddly sensative to deceit and trickery. Their gaze makes others uncomfortable. Makes it easier to discern lies.]
Sense of Purpose [Some Nephilim can sense the locations of injured people, as if guided to those in need. Grants a sixth sense for injuries.]
Arbitor of Law [The ability to use contract magic. A form of metamagic that stores a spell until a given condition is met. Very easily abused. Grants Contract Metamagic.]
Skeleton
Skeleton [One of the most basic undead. Skeletons are often seen in crypts, caves and other underground locations. Most Skeletons are driven by the bitterness of undeath to harm others. Skeletons don't tend to form settlements, instead wandering randomly. +1 Any Weapon Skill]
[Trait 1 does nothing and is merely a point tax to remember your life, so it truly has no purpose other than +1 skill] (Macha)
Flaming Bones [Some skeletons can ignite their own bodies at will, as if imposing their bitterness upon reality.]
Undying Bones [Some Skeletons refuse to die. They revive the next night if not completely destroyed, such as having their bodies tossed in a strong fire or exorcised by holy magic. Auto-revive in exchange for memory loss]
Goblin
Goblin [Perhaps the single least popular race in the world, Goblins are ugly, short abominations with seemingly no moral compass. As ambitious as they are cruel, they attack the weak to build up power. Goblin settlements can be found just about anywhere, even under other cities. +1 to Stealth]
Skilled Infiltrators [Some Goblins are talented at infiltration, able to slip in and out of well defended cities and towns. Increase stealth when in enemy territory]
Nightmare Fuel [Some Goblins have a knack for intimidation, inspiring their foes to imagine the worst outcome. Increased intimidation in combat]
Goblin King [Rarely, a goblin is born with the aptitude to learn others. It isn't a talent in leadership but rather a mild magical compulsion aimed at goblins. Gain a strong influence over other goblins]
Pixie
Pixies [Pixies are tiny little beings, but their magic is just as strong as any other mage's. An infamous race of pranksters, Pixies are fairly harmless, if very annoying, and spend their days seeking entertainment at the expense of those who approach their forest abodes. +1 Illusion Magic]
Fey Wordplay [Some Pixies are supernaturally gifted in deceit, so long as their words are technically true. Half-truths are very hard to discern]
Secret of the Forest [Some Pixies are more in tune with the forest, such that their illusions are even harder to pierce. Improved Illusions in Forests]
Moonlit Gateway [A rare gift of some pixies. The ability to open a portal to any forest in the world. Can only be used on nights with a full moon overhead. Gain a special teleportation spell]
[Teleporting to any forest is a very powerful effect, but only being able to do so 3 days of the month seems to be a bit too janky. If it was only at night it would be enough if you don't want people to use it as a glorified bullet train. Resident fairy appreciator (Macha)]
[It was meant to be like a black magic ritual unique to pixies where they can open portals to the forest, mainly used to open the way to the kingdown ruled by the Fey Royals. I can concede the full moon requirement in exchange for it being a long and fancy ritual spell that takes like an hour to perform. (Paimon)]
Beastman
Beastmen [A race with mild animal like features. They are magically inept but make well balanced warriors. Generally considered fools and cannon fodder by other races, as they tend to be loyal to a fault, even if it means death. Fond of building settlements in forests. +1 Any Martial Skill]
Beastial Senses [Some Beastmen possess especially strong senses, much like the animals they resemble. 1 Sense is much stronger]
Natural Hunter [Some Beastmen are oddly skilled at hiding in the woods, as if the forest was covering for them. Improved stealth in the woodlands]
Frenzied Beast [Some Beastmen can tap into a primal rage, becoming much stronger but fainting soon after. A cornered beast is indeed very dangerous. Temporarily increase all parameters]
Kobold (Needs 2 minor perks) (Needs 1 major perk)
Kobold [The weakest member of the Dragon races, Kobolds are known for their feerless nature. Kobold culture demands their people go out into the world to prove themselves worthy of their draconic bloodline. Kobolds have tribal settlements in all parts of the world. +1 to Any Weapon Skill]
Jinn [Needs 2 minor perks] [Needs 1 major perk]
Jinn [The Jinn, often refered to as genies, are the race with the lowest status. Every single genie (even after evolving to another race) can be easily bound and enslaved by a magic vessel (Which aren't especially rare objects.) Contrary to popular belief, they can't grant wishes. +1 to Any Skill]
Sahuagin [Needs 2 minor perks] [Needs 1 major perk]
Sahuagin [The Sahuagin race are a weak, but highly territorial race. They tend to attack anyone that finds their way near their homes. Naturally, Sahuagins aren't very popular with the other races. Sahuagins prefer to live in dimly lit waters, like sunken cave systems. +1 to Swimming]
Slime [Needs 2 minor perks] [Needs 1 major perk]
Slime [While slimes themselves are a fairly common creature, ones with any level of intelligence are truly rare. Slimes are primarily scavengers that eat dead animals and wilted plants. As a result, they're considered harmeless by most other races. +1 to Physical Resistance]
Homunculi [Needs Description] [Needs 2 minor perks] [Needs 1 major perk]
Dwarf
Dwarf [Stocky, short and famed for their craftsmanship. Dwarves have a long history of being enslaved by other races, and tend to form their settlements in places no one would think to look. Dwarves take pride in their craft and hate disrespect towards their products. +1 Crafting Skill ]
Song of Stone [An innate ability to navigate underground and detect foes due to a sixth sense gained near stone. Improved navigation and detection]
Magic Resistance [Some dwarves boast a resistance to the arcane arts, even if it isn't harmful magic. Gain resistance to arcane spells]
Dwarven Smithing [A rare talent among the Dwarves that allows creating magic items without learning actual magic. Also the source of their darkest history. Can make enchanted items with pure skill]
Valkyrie
Valkyrie [Faithful soldiers of god. A very militant race that idolizes strength. Female Valkyries are often sent out to seek strong warriors and bring them back home. The men stay behind as soldiers. Their settlements tend to be in more dangerous locations. +1 to Enhancement Magic]
Heavenly Strength [Some Valkyries are natual born warriors suited to battle. Each injury only spurs on their bloodlust. Become stronger based on current injuries.]
Heavenly Blood [Some Valkyries have bodies better suited enhancement allowing them to fight for longer. Enhancement Magic lasts twice as long.]
Deathless Fervor [An unusually strong affinity for being revived. Mostly used to enact wave tactics. This is the reason the valkryie race is respected. No consequences from being revived.]
Zombie
Zombie [One of the most basic Undead. Zombies are walking corpses that rose from the unburied dead. Typically they're "born" from sites of massacres, but on rare occasions one rises from a shallow grave. Zombies don't tend to form settlements, preferring to haunt their place of birth. +1 to Regeneration]
Corpse Devouring [Some Zombies can recover flesh by devouring corpses. This also works when devouring other zombies. Heal wounds by eating corpses]
Poison Zombie [The blood and flesh of some Zombies are poisonous, making for dangerous combatants. Physical contact applies poison]
Plague Zombie [Those bitten by a plague zombie slowly die. Upon death, they become a zombie themselves. The process normally takes a few days. Grants Special Status Effect: Zombification.]
Imp
Imp [Imps are a weak race of demon, around as tall as a human child. Lazy, childish, destructive, and selfish are a few ways to describe them. Often found infiltrating the settlements of other races. Imps are an adventurous race, and don't typically have dedicated settlements. +1 to Fire Magic]
Sense of Adventure [Some Imps live far longer than they have any right to, owed to an odd sixth sense for adventure. Improved desicion making in a crisis]
Pyromania [Most imps love starting fires, but some of them are better at it, spreading their fires further. Increased AoE for Fire Magic]
The Cycle of Despair [An ability truely suited to such a deranged race. Some Imps can harvest the suffering of nearby living beings as magical energy. Convert suffering into magical energy]
Dryad
Dryad [Drayads are a weak Fey race born alongside a tree. Their wellbeing is linked to the tree and vice versa, and as a result anyone that attacks their tree is seen as a murderer by them. As long as their tree is left alone, Dryads are a kind and gentle race. +1 to Invigoration]
Spear of the Forest [Some Dryads are even more in tune with their companion tree, able to will it to move. Gain the ability to manipulate your Tree]
Mother of the Forest [The companion trees of some Dryads can bear special seeds. which can create a new Dryad. Dryad Tree can bear special seeds]
Heart of the Forest [A special form of magic used by some Dryads. Allows the user to manipulate and rapidly grow plant life even without any seed. Gain special magic attribute: Wood Magic]
*Lizardman [Needs 2 minor perks] [Needs 1 major perk]
Lizardman [Lizardmen are a rarity among the Dragon races, as they rarely consider themselves as being Dragons. Instead, they prefer to venerate their own lizardmen ancestors, celebrating their greatest achievements. Lizardmen tend to form secluded, tribal settlements far away from other races. +1 to Regeneration]
Tanuki [Needs 2 minor perks] [Needs 1 major perk]
Tanuki [The Tanuki race is famed for their mischief, but also well known for honoring their promises. As a result, most Tanuki end up doing favors for anyone that catches them pulling pranks. Tanuki rarely have settlements of their own, preferring to pester other races. +1 to Illusion Magic]
Mermaid
Mermaid [One of the more peaceful races, Mermaids (the men are called Mermen) possess the lower bodies of fish and live in large bodies of water. Sadly, thanks to rumors that Mermaid flesh is a miraculous medical ingredient, their desire for peace is rarely reciprocated. +1 to Water Magic]
Fleet of Fin [Some Mermaid's are far faster in the water than normal, capable of outrunning many predators. Movement speed increases in the water.]
Sea Speak [Rarely, a Mermaid is born with the ability to communicate with fish and other sea life. Gain the ability to speak with sea life.]
Natural Elixer [The source of a certain rumor, some Mermaids posses a strong vitality in their blood. Their freshly spilt blood has strong healing effects. Blood gains the power to heal wounds.]
Orc [Needs 2 minor perks] [Needs 1 major perk]
Orc [The Orc race is a militant race that prefers brute force over finesse or strategy. Similarly, Orcs rarely develop a sense of humor or any skill in deceit, instead boldly delcaring their intentions. Orc settlements tend to be nomadic, always moving toward the next battle. +1 to Physical Status Resistance]
Undine [Needs Description] [Needs 2 minor perks] [Needs 1 major perk]
Kitsune
Kitsune [A rarer kind of beastman with fox like features. Often believed to be unpredictable schemers by other races, they are as skilled in the supernatural as they are in diplomacy. Kitsune typically live in beastmen settlements as priests or advisors. +1 to Ritual Magic]
Scheming Fox [ Some Kitsune are oddly talented at tricking others, often having their foes run errands for them. Lies and trickery are harder to discern.]
Boundary Keeper [Some Kitsune are attuned to the supernatural, from demons and angels, to fey and the undead. Enhances magic against foreign entities.]
Kyuubi [Some Kitsune have the potential to grow more tails, gaining one each time they evolve. A nine tailed fox is a rare and terrifing foe. Enhances any magic cast for each tail.]
Class Descriptions
[What exactly is the Class? What role does it perform? What kind of trials would you overcome to acquire it?]
Skill Descriptions
[What exactly is the skill? Who takes advantage of having it? What other skills would mesh well with it?]
Budget/Costs
[If you're good with numbers and balance, we don't have a system to actually buy any options yet. If you've got any ideas, this is the place to say something!]
New Proposals
Crazed Rambling With Paimon IV: Let's Talk About EVERYTHING AT THE SAME TIME! 6/23
Know that this section is extremely messy and uncurated. In a mad dash of sudden schizo, I slapped this together in one sitting. It is currently 8 A.M. as of me typing this. It is VERY possible that none of this makes sense. So I'll start with the TL;DR
TL;DR
These are random ideas I'm tossing out, hoping to get second opinions on. I like the ideas personally, but that doesn't mean everyone will. Also I'm worried they might over complicated the CYOA.
Budget
Increase Crowns Budget to 11 Crowns. (2 In your primary system, 9 in any system)
Increase the Costs of tiersT6 Costs 7 Crowns (Includes T5, T4, T3, T2, and T1)
T5 Costs 3 Crowns (Includes T4, T3, T2, and T1)
T4 Costs 1 Crown (Includes T3, T2, and T1)
Races
Lower tier Races taken at a higher tier are cheaper than naturally high tier races
Tier 5 taken at Tier 6 costs 6 Crowns
Tier 4 taken at Tier 6 costs 6 Crowns
Tier 4 taken at Tier 5 costs 3 Crowns
Tier 3 or lower taken at Tier 6 costs 4 Crowns
Tier 3 or lower taken at Tier 5 costs 2 Crowns
Tier 3 or lower taken at Tier 4 costs 1 CrownDoing this has an additional requirement that all the races in the vessel must be of the same tier or lower compared to the race being taken at a higher tier than natural.
Classes
Reduce the Class Categories to 4 (Melee, Magic, Faith, Wisdom). There are 3 Types of Class: Main Classes, Subclasses, and Unique Classes.
Main Classes are purchased with Chains & Crowns. Each Purchase allows the player to Level up an associated Subclass.
Sub Classes are Leveld Up by purchasing Main Classes. Each Level unlocks unique perks.
Unique Classes are purchased with Chains & Crowns but have special requirements before being purchased. Each Unique Class offers a unique perk but doesn't Level Up any Sub Classes.
Class costs are the standard budget costs.
Skills
Skill costs operate on entirely different costs. A T6 Skill is equal to a T6 Race or Class, but it's not equal to the sum of a T6, a T5, and a T4 Race or Class. However, a fusion skill composed of A T6 skill and a T5 skill is more powerful than the sum of a T6, a T5, and a T4 Race or Class. In general, the cost in Crowns can be treated as a guide to how powerful the options is.
Non-Fused SkillsT6 = 4 Crowns Total
T5 = 2 Crowns Total
T4 = 1 Crown Total2 Skill Fusion
T6 + T5 = 8 Crowns Total
T6 + T4 = 6 Crowns Total
T5 + T5 = 6 Crowns Total
T5 + T4 = 4 Crowns Total
T4 + T4 = 3 Crowns Total3 Skill Fusion
T6 + T5 + T4 = 10 Crowns Total
T5 + T5 + T5 = 10 Crowns Total
T5 + T5 + T4 = 8 Crowns Total
T5 + T4 + T4 = 6 Crowns Total
T4 + T4 + T4 = 5 Crowns Total4 Skill Fusion
T6 + T4 + T4 + T4 = 10 Crowns
T5 + T5 + T4 + T4 = 10 Crowns
T5 + T4 + T4 + T4 = 8 Crowns
T4 + T4 + T4 + T4 = 7 Crowns5 Skill Fusion
T5 + T4 + T4 + T4 + T4 = 10 Crowns
T4 + T4 + T4 + T4 + T4 = 9 Crowns6 Skill Fusion
T4 + T4 + T4 + T4 + T4 + T4 = 11 Crowns
TL;DR Over, on to the full schizo ramble that I should probably fix at some point!
Proposal: A change to the Crown currency
The Current System
You can spend your crowns in 6 ways. This is counting the fact that buying a T6 also gives you a T5 and a T4 and that buying a T5 gives you a T4.
E.G. If you buy 1 T6 Race, 1 T5 Race, and 1 T4 Race, in total you will posses 1 T6, 2 T5, and 3 T4 races.
1 T6, 2 T5, 3 T4
1 T6, 1 T5, 4 T4
3 T5, 4 T4
2 T5, 5 T4
1 T5, 6 T4
7 T4
As it stands, buying a T6 vs 2 T5's is a valid debate. It's
T6, T5, T4
VS
T5, T5, T4, T4
Effectively trading a T6 for a T5 AND a T4.
However, buying a T6 vs a T4...
T6, T5, T4
VS
T4, T4, T4, T4
Is less ideal, since it's trading a T6 and a T5 for 3 T4s.
Lastly, trading a T5 for a T4 is even worse.
T5, T4
VS
T4, T4
It's a complete downgrade, as T5 is by design superiour to T4.
Thus, I propose we change the costs to:
T6 = 7
T5 = 3
T4 = 1
T6, T5, T4
VS
T5, T5, T4, T4, T4
VS
T4, T4, T4, T4, T4, T4, T4
In this case, the prices have a steady and simple progression. Where a single T6 can be traded for 2 T5s or 4 T4s, akin to the orignal distribution when the Chains and Crowns system was first proposed.
1 T6, 2 T5, 3 T4 = 6 + 2 * 3 + 3 * 1 = 15
1 T6, 1 T5, 4 T4 = 6 + 1 * 3 + 4 * 4 = 13
3 T5, 4 T4 = 3 * 3 + 4 * 1 = 13
2 T5, 5 T4 = 2 * 3 + 5 * 1 = 11
1 T5, 6 T4 =
7 T4
In this case, the budget would be 11 Crowns per build total (1 less than the amount needed to buy 2 T6 slots and still a prime number! Same as before.) Since the overall budget increased, the 1 Crown from which realm your soul is from might be increased to 2 Crowns (meaning the player would have 9 Crowns to distribute freely and 2 Crowns locked to their main System)
11 Crowns, like the current system, can be spent in 6 ways:
1 T6, 2 T5, 3 T4
1 T6, 1 T5, 5 T5
3 T5, 5 T4
2 T5, 7 T4
1 T5, 9 T4
11 T4
Doing it this way promotes the use of lower tier items without making higher tier items more available, and should help lead to more build variety. It also doesn't increae the overall level of power for a build from before.
Sub-Proposal: Skill Costs and Skill Fusion Costs (A less important proposal that requires the above proposal as a foundation to operate.)
The above proposal also means that direct buy (i.e. optionally not getting freebies when you buy: A T6 is just a T6 and not T6 + T5 + T4) could be an option along side the current system. The prices of this would be the original prices of 4, 2, and 1 for T6, T5, and T4 respectively.
The overall power level wouldn't change much, but the possible distributions increase a bit.
2 T6, 1 T5, 1 T4
1 T6, 3 T5, 1 T4
1 T6, 2 T5, 3 T4
1 T6, 1 T5, 5 T4
5 T5, 1 T4
4 T5, 3 T4
3 T5, 5 T4
2 T5, 7 T4
1 T5, 9 T4
11 T4
Of course, that includes all the combinations of the above system, making it clearly superior. It's purely more flexible with no drawbacks. Thus I'm not proposing this be available for everything. What I am proposing, is that we use this for the Skill System. As it stands, skills don't give perks or unique features beyond proficiency and the potential for skill fusion. Moreover, the simplicity of most skills would make giving them all explicit perks or unique features rather difficult. Skill Fusion on the other hand can have a tax associated with it.
The tax for skill fusion is based on the lower tier of the fusion and is equal to the price of that lower tier skill. For fusions with more than 2 skills, the fusion is tabulated in stages.
E.G. T6 + T5 + T4
Individually, those Tiers of Skills cost 4 + 2 + 1 = 7 Crowns
First, we fuse T6 with T5. T5 is the lower tier, the tax is 2. 7 + 2 Crowns = 9 Crowns.
Lastly, we fuse T6 + T5 with T4. T4 is the lower tier, the tax is 1. 9 + 1 = 10 Crowns.
T6 + T6 + T6 = 12 Crowns + 8 Crowns Fusion Tax = 20 Crowns Total
T6 + T6 + T5 = 10 Crowns + 6 Crowns Fusion Tax = 16 Crowns Total
T6 + T6 + T4 = 9 Crowns + 5 Crowns Fusion Tax = 14 Crowns Total
T6 + T5 + T5 = 8 Crowns + 5 Crowns Fusion Tax = 13 Crowns Total
T6 + T5 + T4 = 7 Crowns + 3 Crowns Fusion Tax = 10 Crowns Total
T5 + T5 + T5 = 6 Crowns + 4 Crowns Fusion Tax = 10 Crowns Total
T5 + T5 + T4 = 5 Crowns + 3 Crowns Fusion Tax = 8 Crowns Total
T5 + T4 + T4 = 4 Crowns + 2 Crowns Fusion Tax = 6 Crowns Total
T4 + T4 + T4 = 3 Crowns + 2 Crowns Fusion Tax = 5 Crowns Total
T6 + T6 = 8 Crowns + 4 Crowns Fusion Tax = 12 Crowns Total
T6 + T5 = 6 Crowns + 2 Crowns Fusion Tax = 8 Crowns Total
T6 + T4 = 5 Crowns + 1 Crowns Fusion Tax = 6 Crowns Total
T5 + T5 = 4 Crowns + 2 Crowns Fusion Tax = 6 Crowns Total
T5 + T4 = 3 Crowns + 1 Crowns Fusion Tax = 4 Crowns Total
T4 + T4 = 2 Crowns + 1 Crowns Fusion Tax = 3 Crowns Total
Or, in order of price, here's the same list:
T6 + T6 + T5 = 16 Crowns Total
T6 + T6 + T4 = 14 Crowns Total
T6 + T5 + T5 = 13 Crowns Total
T6 + T6 = 12 Crowns Total
T6 + T5 + T4 = 10 Crowns Total
T5 + T5 + T5 = 10 Crowns Total
T5 + T5 + T4 = 8 Crowns Total
T6 + T5 = 8 Crowns Total
T5 + T4 + T4 = 6 Crowns Total
T6 + T4 = 6 Crowns Total
T5 + T5 = 6 Crowns Total
T4 + T4 + T4 = 5 Crowns Total
T5 + T4 = 4 Crowns Total
T4 + T4 = 3 Crowns Total
T6 + T5 + T4
Note that anything equivalent to 2 T6s fused together is above 11 Crowns. That's by design. The idea is that two skills of the same tier fused together are equivalent to the next tier above it. Meaning T4 + T4 = T5 in terms of overall power. T6 + T6 is impossible because T7 isn't available to the players. Secondly, the text in the CYOA should probably imply that fusion skills are more potent than equivalent Tier Races or Classes. Mechanically this is because the fusion tax makes them more expensive. Lore wise, this is because the Skill System itself is more powerful than the other two Systems.
Additionally, in order to protect the integrity of the currency, Low Tier Skills (T1, T2, T3) can be fused with higher tier skills but provide negligible benefits. This also prevents any attempts to reach T7 in the addendum below.
As an addendum, it was mentioned before that some Race or Class perks might grant the ability to fuse more than 3 skills together. So here's a list of prices for all possible fusions of High Tier Skills (i.e. T4, T5, T6).
Non-Fused Skills
T6 = 4 Crowns Total
T5 = 2 Crowns Total
T4 = 1 Crown Total
2 Fusion
T6 + T5 = 8 Crowns Total
T6 + T4 = 6 Crowns Total
T5 + T5 = 6 Crowns Total
T5 + T4 = 4 Crowns Total
T4 + T4 = 3 Crowns Total
3 Fusion
T6 + T5 + T4 = 10 Crowns Total
T5 + T5 + T5 = 10 Crowns Total
T5 + T5 + T4 = 8 Crowns Total
T5 + T4 + T4 = 6 Crowns Total
T4 + T4 + T4 = 5 Crowns Total
4 Fusion
T6 + T4 + T4 + T4 = 10 Crowns
T5 + T5 + T4 + T4 = 10 Crowns
T5 + T4 + T4 + T4 = 8 Crowns
T4 + T4 + T4 + T4 = 7 Crowns
5 Fusion
T5 + T4 + T4 + T4 + T4 = 10 Crowns
T4 + T4 + T4 + T4 + T4 = 9 Crowns
6 Fusion
T4 + T4 + T4 + T4 + T4 + T4 = 11 Crowns
All other combinations of 4 or more High Tier Skills costs more than 11 Crowns. The only way for the player to fuse more skills into the mix would be by adding Low Tier Skills. A total of 17 Possibilities, 7 of which are locked behind having certain race/class perks. Of the 17, 6 would be too expensive to purchase without having a soul native to the Primal Realm. If we do go with this model for Skills and Skill fusion, it's a small enough list of possibilities to just include a chart spelling out the costs rather than ask the player to tabulate the costs of fusion.
Other Sub-Proposal: Race vs Class buying mechanics.
Long, long ago, we discussed the possibility that taking lower tier races at a higher tier would be cheaper (but weaker).
By the first proposal, these are the costs of High Tier Races bought at their lowest tier (their default tier, if you will). The cost includes gaining the races that lead up to it.
T6 = 7 Crowns
T5 = 3 Crowns
T4 = 1 Crown
The Cost to buy a race at a higher tier is:
T5 T6 6 Crowns
T4 T6 6 Crowns
T4 T5 3 Crowns
T1~3 T6 4 Crowns
T1~3 T5 2 Crowns
T1~3 T4 1 Crown
With an additional rule: The default tier of your final race must be the highest default tier in the list.
E.G.
If your final race is Human at T5 (Humans are a T1 Race), then that means you can only use 5 T1 races to build your race. This would cost 2 Crowns.
On the other hand, if your final race is a T4 Race bought at T6, then you can use 6 races of T4 or below. This would cost 6 Crowns.
As for the Class System...
Reduce Classes to 4 main categories. The 7 perks are for mixing the categories. Effectively, this turns all the hybrid classes into subclasses instead. In total there would be 24 Classes and 14 Subclasses. Each time you take a class, you increase the level of one associated subclass. Subclasses have actual perks that provide unique benefits. Subclasses can't be leveled up by a Class of the same or lower level. (I.E. if you took 3 Faith classes and leveled the Paladin Subclass up to Lv3, and then you took the Warrior Class, you wouldn't be able to increase the Paladin Subclass to Lv4.)
E.G.
Warrior (T1 Melee)
Perk 1 Pure Melee: +1 Brute
Perk 2 Melee with Magic: +1 Spellsword
Perk 3 Melee with Faith: +1 Paladin
Perk 4 Melee with Wisdom: +1 Assassin
Perk 5 Melee with Magic and Faith: +1 Martial Artist
Perk 6 Melee with Magic and Wisdom: +1 Magus
Perk 7 Melee with Wisdom and Faith: +1 Hero
Spellsword
Lv1 Perk: A Level 1 Spellsword can add temporary enchantments to their weapon.
Lv2 Perk: ???
Lv3 Perk: ???
Lv4 Perk: ???
Lv5 Perk: ???
Lv6 Perk: ???
Lastly, there would be a number of 'Unique Classes'. These would have special unlock conditions. They are considered both a main class and a subclass in one combined package. Thus they cost chains/crowns to purchase and provide a unique perk instead of letting the player increase the level of a subclass.
E.G.
Ninja [L4] (Requires L1 Spellsword and L2 Martial Artist)
Unique Perk: Shadow Clone Technique (Ninja's can produce clones with physical presence and limited spellcasting ability at will)
In this case, Ninja is a Level 4 class that requires both the Spellsword subclass at Lv1 and the Martial Artist Subclass at Lv2.
In terms of pricing, Classes run purely on the normal costs:
Buying a T6 Class costs 7 Crowns and includes T5, T4, T3, T2, and T1 as per normal.
Buying a T5 Class costs 3 Crowns and includes T4, T3, T2, and T1 as per normal.
Buying a T4 Class costs 1 Crown and includes T3, T2, and T1 as per normal.
Crazed Rambling With Paimon III: Let's Talk Classes! 5/11
| Type | Melee | Magic | Faith | Wisdom | Melee + Magic | Magic + Faith | Faith + Wisdom | Wisdom + Melee | Melee + Faith | Magic + Stealth | Melee + Magic + Faith | Melee + Magic + Wisdom | Melee + Faith + Wisdom | Magic + Faith + Wisdom | Total |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| L1 | Warrior | Mage | Priest | Apprentice | 4 | ||||||||||
| L2 | Gladiator | Sorcerer | Healer | Artisan | Spellsword | Druid | Bard | Rogue | Monk | Trickster | Martial Artist | Magus | Berserker | Alchemist | 14 |
| L3 | Knight | ??? | Exorcist | Scholar | ??? | Psychic | Miko | Cavalier | Inquisitor | Beast Tamer | 10 | ||||
| L4 | Duelist | Evil Eye User | High Priest | Teacher | Battlemage | Onmyouji | Ranger | Treasure Hunter | Paladin | Artificer | ??? | ??? | Ninja | ??? | 14 |
| L5 | Samurai | Archmage | Oracle | Doctor | Magic Knight | Necromancer | Summoner | Assassin | Crusader | Monster Tamer | 10 | ||||
| L6 | Champion | Void Mage | Demiurge | Sage | Death Knight | Magical Girl | Hero | Dark Lord | 8 |
While I was at it, I decided to rework my previous class chart to better match the race chart I proposed earlier (60 Classes for 60 Races)- note that the blank spaces are meant to be blank, as opposed to the '???" which is an actual placeholder. Nothing too special to say here. I just had time to burn, and figured 'why not?' Other than that, I was thinking about how to make classes feel more distinct., but the only things I came up with were adding restrictions- things like no doubling down or class promotion requires having a shared class type. Kind of just feels like it'd make it strictly worse than races though- but maybe we could make it up by giving it something else in return? The only thing that occurred to be for that was letting the player skip levels for a point refund, but that feels like it'd make classes the superior option instead. Not sure what to do here, but I figured I'd share my thought and see what everyone else thinks.
I'll also toss out that I'm liking the idea of subclasses/specializations as perks even more. I liked it before, but organizing the classes made me even more fond of it.
Class Perks / Subclasses?
[I decided to just come up with a huge pile of vague placeholders. Something simple to build on and slowly replace.]
[The suboptions of classes being specialization/subclasses that deepen an aspect of the base or add something new is nice, but if there's no doubling down like the races you do end up with a problem of not having higher tier classes of what you want to do, i.e "I want a melee tank class, but there's only a T2 class for that, T6 is a dexmaxxer DPS". Anyway we should at least get the base concepts of the classes before giving them perks] (Macha)
Melee
Warrior
Mobility?
Precision?
Strength?
Defense?
Anti-Beast?
Anti-Human?
Anti-Beast should be a ranger effect(Macha)
Gladiator
Mobility?
Precision?
Strength?
Defense?
Anti-Beast?
Anti-Human?
Knight
Low SPD, High STR/DEF, heavy armor, shield, tanking. I'd slap being a dark knight or something here if not for magic knight and paladin existing(Macha)
Mobility?
Precision?
Strength?
Defense?
Anti-Beast?
Anti-Human?
Duelist
High speed/mobility, 1x1 fighting, dexterity based (Macha)
Mobility?
Precision?
Strength?
Defense?
Anti-Beast?
Anti-Human?
Samurai (Bow? Naginata?)
Bow and Katana for the weapons would be ideal (Macha)
Mobility? (Dual Wield?)
Precision? (Katana?)
Strength? (Odachi?)
Defense? (Armor?)
Anti-Beast?
Anti-Human?
Champion
Mobility?
Precision?
Strength?
Defense?
Anti-Beast?
Anti-Human?
Magic
Mage
Magic Potency?
Magic Duration?
Magic Range?
Casting Speed?
Magic Element?
Magic Effect/school? (I.E. illusions, divination, etc.)
Sorcerer
Magic Potency?
Magic Duration?
Magic Range?
Casting Speed?
Magic Element?
Magic Effect/school? (I.E. illusions, divination, etc.)
???
Magic Potency?
Magic Duration?
Magic Range?
Casting Speed?
Magic Element?
Magic Effect/school? (I.E. illusions, divination, etc.)
Evil Eye User
Charm Eye User
Petrification Eye User
Curse Eye User
Clairvoyance Eye User
Future Sight Eye User
??? Eye User?
Archmage
Magic Potency?
Magic Duration?
Magic Range?
Casting Speed?
Magic Element?
Magic Effect/school? (I.E. illusions, divination, etc.)
Void Mage
Magic Potency?
Magic Duration?
Magic Range?
Casting Speed?
Magic Element?
Magic Effect/school? (I.E. illusions, divination, etc.)
Faith
Priest
Magic Potency?
Magic Duration?
Magic Range?
Casting Speed?
Magic Element?
Magic Effect/school? (I.E. illusions, divination, etc.)
Healer
Cure Sickness?
Combat Healer (Fast Acting, but more superficial)?
Non-Combat Healer (Slower, but more complete)?
Self-Healer?
Curse Breaking?
???
Exorcist
Demon Exorcist?
Undead Exorcist?
Spirit Exorcist?
Curse Breaking?
???
???
High Priest
Magic Potency?
Magic Duration?
Magic Range?
Casting Speed?
Magic Element?
Magic Effect/school? (I.E. illusions, divination, etc.)
Oracle : A class specialized in magical information gathering. Peer into both the present and the future with the power of faith.
Astrologer (Events that happen under the light of the stars are easier to divine.)
Solar Envoy (Events that happen under the light of the sun are easier to divine.)
Storm Speaker (Events that happen under a cloudy sky are easier to divine.)
Shadow Oracle (Events that happen where the sky cannot be seen are easier to divine.)
Blood Oracle (Can use blood as a focus to more easily divine events related to that blood- i.e. the owner of the blood or their relatives.)
Fortune Teller (Events related to a subject currently in front of you are easier to divine.)
Most of those could be combined into a single option for specialization ("pick one of X") and they don't meaningfully change how the class works nor really improve much on anything distinct.
Demiurge
Magic Potency?
Magic Duration?
Magic Range?
Casting Speed?
Magic Element?
Magic Effect/school? (I.E. illusions, divination, etc.)
Wisdom
Apprentice
Artisan?
Scholar?
Teacher?
Doctor?
Bard?
Alchemist?
Artisan
Smithing?
Carving?
Tailor?
Machinist?
Cooking?
Other?
Scholar
Historian?
Politician?
Philosopher?
Scientist?
???
???
Teacher
Wisdom?
Melee?
Faith?
Magic?
???
???
Doctor
Magical Healing?
Herbs and Potions?
Science and Medication?
Skillful Surgery?
Mental Health?
???
Alchemist should be a Wisdom class, and Doctor could be an improved version of it. Beyond potions you could have modification surgery and injections for buffing (possibly with side effects so they can be very powerful).
Sage
???
???
???
???
???
???
Melee + Magic
Spellsword
Short Range Magic?
Temporary Enchantments?
Body Enhancement?
Barrier Magic?
Multi-Tasking?
Use a weapon as a wand?
???
Short Range Magic?
Temporary Enchantments?
Body Enhancement?
Barrier Magic?
Multi-Tasking?
Use fists as a wand?
Battlemage
Short Range Magic?
Temporary Enchantments?
Body Enhancement?
Barrier Magic?
Multi-Tasking?
Use a wand as a sword?
Magic Knight
Short Range Magic?
Temporary Enchantments?
Body Enhancement?
Barrier Magic?
Multi-Tasking?
Use armor as a wand?
Magic + Faith
Druid
Wood Magic?
Shapeshifting?
Healing?
Potions?
Talking to animals/trees/etc?
Navigate forests?
Psychic
Foresight?
Telekenisis?
(Element)-kenesis?
Telepathy?
Clairvoyance?
???
Onmyouji
Talismans?
Bind Spirits?
Exorcism?
Cast Magic Better?
Curses/Hexes?
Clones/Shikigami?
Necromancer
Ghosts
Mindless Undead Hoards?
Intelligent Undead Elite?
Blood Magic?
Self-Targeted Necromancy?
Necromancy as healing?
Faith + Wisdom
Bard
Story Telling?
Charisma Maxxing?
Singing?
???
???
???
Miko
Archery?
Talismans?
Rituals?
Divination Arts?
Divine Possession?
Healing Magic?
Ranger
Desert Ranger
Forest Ranger
Tundra Ranger
Mountain Ranger
Plains Ranger
Ocean Ranger
Summoner
Spirit Summoner
Demon Summoner
Angel Summoner
Nature Summoner
Undead Summoner
Elemental Summoner?
Everything here could be compressed into a single option for specialization.
Wisdom + Melee
Rogue
Sneak Attacks?
Stealth?
Archery?
Daggers?
Lockpicking/Pickpocketing/etc.?
Scouting?
Cavalier
Riding Speed?
Riding Maneuverability?
Attacking while riding?
???
???
???
Treasure Hunter
Bandit
Pirate
Ruin Hunter
Salvager
Monster Hunter
???
Assassin
???
???
???
???
???
???
Melee + Faith
Monk
???
???
???
???
???
???
Inquisitor
???
???
???
???
???
???
Paladin
???
???
???
???
???
???
Crusader
???
???
???
???
???
???
Magic + Wisdom
Trickster
???
???
???
???
???
???
Beast Tamer
???
???
???
???
???
???
Artificer
???
???
???
???
???
???
Monster Tamer
???
???
???
???
???
???
Melee + Magic + Faith
Martial Artist
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
Death Knight
???
???
???
???
???
???
Melee + Magic + Wisdom
Magus
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
Magical Girl
Beams and Lasers?
The Power of Love and Friendship (Emotion Based Empowerment)?
Monster Sealing Magic?
Magical Melee Specialist?
Healing and Barriers?
Ally of Justice (Movement speed and detecting people in need)?
Melee + Faith + Wisdom
Berserker
Rage Power?
Rage Speed?
Rage Durability?
Self-Buff Magic?
Calm Rage?
Special Potions?
Ninja
Ninja Stealth?
Ninja Speed?
Ninja Magic?
Ninja Tools?
Ninja Seduction!?
Ninja Knowledge?
Hero
Weapon Skills?
Miracles?
Knowledge?
Monster Lore?
Body Enhancement?
Commune with the Gods?
Magic + Faith + Wisdom
Alchemist
Potions?
Salves?
Tools?
Bombs?
Homunculi, Golems, etc?
Magic Circles?
???
???
???
???
???
???
???
Dark Lord
Leadership?
Magic (Curses)?
Knowledge?
Shapeshifting?
Magic (Attack)?
Magic (Buffs)?
Crazed Rambling With Paimon II: Let's Talk Specific Races! 5/7
Before we go any deeper on the exact categories of races, let's talk about what races we want to be options in the first place. I'm concerned we might end up so focused on the logic and lore of the categories, that we'll end up either pushing a lot of random races to fit those themes, or (more likely) the races we include will feel somewhat forced when we try to retrofit them to the categories we made. So I'd like us to try and answer the question: 'As the authors, what options do we want to offer the reader?'
For this, let's go tiermaker style.
S Tier means races that Absolutely MUST exist, no questions asked. These are the things that are either foundational to the setting we have (Human, God, Demon), or something so common to fantasy that not including them as an option would be extremely strange (Dragon, Vampire).
A Tier is for races we have very strong feelings towards including. It could be something you just absolutely adore. Ideally, these should be races that are suited to either JRPG or Portal Fantasy settings.
B Tier is a middle ground if you're not sure how strong you feel about the race. Maybe you really like them, but they don't fit the genre as well. Maybe you hate them, but you have to admit it's fitting extremely fitting.
C Tier is for odd niche races we wouldn't mind seeing included, but we're willing to let go of if we can't make it fit. These are basically back up races to round out the list.
D Tier is the anti-vote. It means you expressly think the race shouldn't be included, not even if we have room left over and want to round out some corners. It could also mean that you think the race is too similar to another option, and should be included as a perk for another race instead of a stand alone race.
Feel free to insert your own opinions into the list- it's fine even if a race appears in more than one tier. It just means we had different votes. It's 100% OK to place things based on personal bias. Once we've all had a chance to place our votes, we can discuss the races that are placed in multiple different tiers and refine the list until every race only appears once- that'll be our first prototype. From there, we'll do our best to slot those races into the chart, starting with S Tier, then A Tier, and down the list.
[Having C Tier above B tier is a grave sin] (Macha)
TL;DR: If you want a race to be in the cyoa, put it into one of these tiers. Don't overwrite anyone else's votes- it's fine if a race is in multiple tiers. Higher tiers are for races you either really love, that you feel really suit the setting (JRPG + Portal Fantasy), or both.
S Tier
Humans
Gods
Demons
Dragons
Vampires
A Tier
Elf
Dwarf
Zombie
Skeleton
Pixie/Faerie
Classic Alchemical Spirits (Salamander, etc.)
Beastmen (of the arknights variety)
Angel
Devil
Lich
Ghost
Goblin
Android
Reaper
Wyverns/Lesser Dragons
Fey Royalty
Oni
Dragonkin (i.e. a draconic humanoid)
B Tier
Amazoness
Giant
Dryad
Treant
Spriggan
Lycanthropes
Slime
Spirit Possessed Objects (Dolls, swords, mirrors, etc.)
Spirit Possessed Large Objects (Buildings, Mountains, Rivers, etc.)
Mermaid/Mermen
Death knight
Orc
Lamia
Phoenix
Mimic
Troll
Golem
Dullahan
Chimera
Fallen Angels
C Tier
Dire Beasts (i.e. not a human with dog traits, but just a huge dog that can talk.)
Valkyrie
Tengu
Succubus
Tanuki
Gargoyle
Dridder
Medusa
Minotaur
Hydra
Genie
Xian
9 Tails Fox
Phoenix (Macha)
Mermaid/Mermen (Macha)
D Tier
Beastmen (of the furry variety) (I'll be honest. This kind of thing makes me kind of uncomfortable. Pure bias)
Eh, Furries can simply be an aesthetic option for beastmen, it doesn't have to be an actual option in the cyoa(Macha)
Fallen Angels - Could be a sidegrade for the Angel race, doesn't even need to be a perk (Macha)
Xian - Not really JRPG-ish. (Macha)
Medusa - Could be a perk for Lamia if that gets in (Macha)
Death knight - Should be either a class or a race. If it's a class it belongs here (Macha)
[Current Prototype Race Chart]
| Category | Primal | Monsters | Hymgard? | Gods | Demons | Undead | ??? | Fey | Worldly Demons | Spirits |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Origin | Primal Realm | Target World | Home World | Divine Realm | Demonic Realm | Corruption (Primal/Divine) | Corruption (Primal/Demonic) | Corruption (Target/Divine) | Corruption (Target/Demonic) | Corruption (Divine/Demonic) |
| T1 | Beastmen | Slime | Humans | Naga | Sloth Demon | Zombie | Goblins | Pixies | Dridder | Wisps |
| T1 | Mermaid/Mermen? | Mimic | Dwarves | Rakshasa | Gluttony Demon | Possessed Objects | Orc | Treant | Gargoyle | Item Spirits |
| T2 | Amazoness | Golem | Lycanthropes | Yaksha | Lust Demon | Skeleton | Oni | Dryad | Wyverns/Lesser Dragons | Animal Spirits |
| T3 | Elves | Phoenix | Dire Beasts? | Preta | Greed Demon | Ghost | Fox Demon? | Trolls | Minotaur | Mortal Spirits |
| T4 | Angels | Chimera | Fallen Angels | Vanara | Envy Demon | Death Knight | Dragonkin? | Spriggan | Medusa | ??? |
| T5 | Giants | Hydra | ??? | Asura | Wrath Demon | Vampire | Devils | Dullahan | ??? | Salamander/Undine/etc. |
| T6 | Xian | Genie? | Androids? | Deva | Demon Lord (Pride) | Lich | Reapers? | Fey Royalty | Dragons | Kami |
So, some of this is just me tossing stuff at the wall to see if anything sticks. The single biggest change is that I divided Ouroboros's Undead/Spirit category in two and overwrote Unnamed 3. Mechanically, this was because I felt there was enough unique Undead Races to fill out the roster, meaning they needed a category to themselves. Lore wise, the idea is that they're both 'dead things' in different ways. Undead are entities that perish and cling to life, such that their spirit is bound to something that now sustains them. A spirit, however, are entities that perished and hoped to become something greater in death. As a result, they aren't possessing anything, but are instead actual spiritual beings made purely of magical/ethereal energy. So, for example, an item spirit might be an old sword that broke. It ascended beyond it's former body and became an item spirit- probably a floating, ghostly sword. If the sword's 'mind' had instead clung to it's former body, it would have become a cursed sword (undead) instead. I figured this was also in line with the concepts of the base races- Demons are all about evolution, so the idea of taking death as a chance to shed the past and become something greater makes sense for a race that is part demon (Spirits in this proposal are Divine + Demonic).
Next up, I tried to match up some races with the race categories. For example, the Worldly Demons are races I felt would be just fine if they were the only living things around (minus maybe food concerns, anyway). Not sure about Gargoyles, since I kind of tossed them in, to be honest. But Medusa's, Minotaurs, Dragons, Dridders- I'm fairly certain they can live just fine on their own.
In contrast, Goblins, Orcs (also, just to be clear, JRPG orcs are pigmen, like Ganon. Not the D&D kind), etc. seem to either be fairly social species or species that outright require other life to do their thing- for example it's kind of hard to be the Grim Reaper if there's no life to reap.
For Gods and Demons I tried to overhaul them completely, since until now they were essentially just 'lesser this, greater that' up and down the line. For gods, I picked out 7 random hindu mythical races of off wikipedia. For Demons I figured we could sort them out by their Sin, similar to how theirs a classifying the 7 biggest demons in hell based on Sin (Lucifer, Satan, Beelzebub, Leviathan, Belphegor, Mamon, Asmodeus). It's not Ars Goetia, but it's adjacent, and it gives us a way to keep 7 different kinds of demons distinct while keeping to the Christian demon theme.
Moving on, Primal vs Hymgard was divided on very vague criteria. It was a mixture of how 'ancient' I felt the race was mixed with how well I think they cooperate. Namely that older races and races that cooperate better tended towards Primal. Meanwhile the races I thought were more likely to engage in infighting were for Hymgard. Honestly, it was pretty flippant- I'm not attached to how I did those two .
For Monsters, I tried to prioritize some races that felt less intelligent- stuff that'd make sense if they mindlessly attacked trespassers in a dungeon, minus Genies. Honestly I probably should have moved the genies somewhere else.
Another noteworthy thing is that I put classical angels under the Primal Realm. It's one of those very basic JRPG races I wanted to make sure got in, but since I Hundu-ized the Divine Realm they didn't fit in over there anymore. They seemed like good cooperators however, so Primal Realm seemed like a good fit. Similarly, JRPG likes to treat Fox creatures as special, so I wanted to make sure they get some love too- so I put them with the more parasitic races. There's all kinds of legends about Fox Monsters eating people's livers and stuff, right? Or just being eastern succubi.
Paimon's Crazed Rambling! 5/5
Cosmology & The 3 Realms:
Originally, the Demonic, Divine, and Human/Primal Realms were entirely separate universes- they weren't actually heaven or hell or anything. One reason being that I figured there were more realms out in the greater multiverse, and the 3 realms in our setting just haven't managed to come in contact. Meanwhile, the heaven/hell themes could just be described away with 'humans mapped their own religions onto these worlds to explain them. As separate universes, their reincarnation cycles were also meant to be separate. I'm not especially attached to this setup. It's basically just what comes to my mind when I think 'portal fantasy'. The current writeup tied everything up, making the 3 realms a complete cosmology instead. On one hand, I feel the original had more room for new things, but on the other hand Ouroboros's writeup tied everything together really neatly. Which suits our needs better?
Timeline:
My personal perception of the general timeline went something like:
1 - The Dawn of Time: The 3 Realms don't have any interactions yet- no portals. Various precursor civilizations pop up around each Realm.
2 - The Rise of Empires: Humans, Demons, and Gods fight with their other native species for supremacy, bent on becoming the leaders of their realms. The 9 worlds of the Human/Primal Realm aren't united yet.
3 - The Astral War: Demons reach their apex (T7-T9?) first due to their system being the fastest and manage to open a portal to the Divine Realm and set off the Astral War, starting a long history of hate between the two realms. During this era, Humanity unites the 9 worlds of their realm, leading the wills of those worlds to join together too.
4 - The Fall of Humanity: The War between Demons and Gods rages on, and Gods manage to reach out to a new Realm- the Human/Primal Realm. The Gods pose as a benevolent force, promising humanity prosperity and warning them against the barbarism of the Demons. Some centuries later, Demons learn of this new Realm and make a concerted effort to find it. Upon arrival, the Demons are caught in a pincer- Humanity believed the propaganda of the Gods and joined forces to attack the Demon threat, expanding the Astral War. However, the tides tip too quickly- Humanity was too strong. Strong enough to threaten the Demon Realm on their own. Strong enough to intimidate their allies. Fearful that Humanity will turn on them next, the Gods stab Humanity in the back, joining hands with the Demons to take down Humanity, all but exterminating them.
5 - Astral Remnants: Contrary to their expectations, the 9 wills of the Human/Primal Realm join forces to lash out at the wills of the Demon and Divine Realms, eating away at them, weakening their systems and strengthening their own. The Gods and Demons panic, knowing that if this continues, their worlds will die and humanity will become unstoppable once it possesses all 3 systems. That would mean harsh retaliation. They once again join forces to craft the black magic ritual that reverses the cycle of reincarnation, giving birth to the Remnants. All in a desperate bid to destroy the last surviving humans and save their homeworlds. At the same time, a new, weaker Human Race rises up to take the place of their predecessors. These humans lack any spirit of cooperation, failing to make full use of the Skill system.
Obviously, this contradicts Ouroboros's version in a lot of ways. If I had to give a reason why my version is like this, it's because the genre is portal fantasy- to me a core component of portal fantasy is having the portals open up suddenly and recently in the timeline from the perspective of the world it takes place in. It opens up this situation where the characters are currently in the process of discovering these new worlds and coming to understand them, as opposed to knowing about them for ages- something that meshes well with the feel of colonization too. To go with that, my intent is that parts 4 and 5 of my timeline happen pretty quickly. Parts 1-3 could represent thousands or even millions of years, but Part 4 is only around a century or less with the Demons arriving in the Human/Primal Realm happening in the last decade of that century. Part 5 could even be just a few years old when canon starts. This is 100% a personal opinion, but I figured I'd put it out there for you good fellows to ponder.
Racial Categories:
Our original building blocks for races were the Divines (representing order and tradition), the Demons (representing Darwinism and tyranny), and Humanity (representing cooperation and learning). Our current list of race categories has two more building blocks- Monsters/JRPG and Unnamed 1. For the latter, I propose a theme of Freedom and Individuality- something that fundamentally opposes society. It'd fit the theme of random monsters fairly well, as a lot of monsters serve no greater purpose than their own instincts. For Unnamed 1, I propose we change it from an origin to a corruption of Humanity and Monsters. The theme of new humans is that they failed to uphold the virtue of cooperation- that'd be represented in how Cooperation (Human Race Category) became tainted with extreme individuality (Monsters/JRPG). New humans are too focused on their own individual benefits to cooperate selflessly. This could also work for Elves, since although they cooperate with each other well enough, they're often hermetic and shun other races- a mixture of cooperation and individuality.
Undead/Spirits (Divine x Human) would have themes of order and cooperation. Beings focused on working together to build up a society (even to the point of forcefully converting other life forms into more of their own?)
Meanwhile, Fey (Divine x Monsters) would be a mix of Order and Freedom- and I think that fits the Fey to a T. They're all about weird rules mixing with amoral hedonism.
Unnamed 3 (Divine x Demonic) would be a mix of Order and Darwinism. Perhaps it's some kind of race focused on the evolution of society as a whole rather than the evolution of an individual? Not sure. Maybe the highest level of this race is some kind of living colony of lesser entities- a living swarm kind of deal?
Rakshasa/Worldly Demon (Demonic x Monsters) would be a mixture of Darwinism and Freedom. Meaning they're races that follow the law of the jungle, but their goal is freedom. They get stronger to be free of society. They can still participate in society, but they aren't bound by it. For example, a Dragon might be a tyrant that rules over others, but if the society it rules collapses, the Dragon won't be any worse for wear- the Dragon isn't depending on them for anything beyond entertainment.
Unnamed 2 (Demonic x Humans) would then be a mixture of Darwinism and Cooperation. Things that rely on society to become stronger- like how a succubus or a Faustian devil would prey on others to feed, or how goblins might band together for survival.
Late Responses to Thread and proposal for introduction text while we are WIP 5/4 Ouroboros
RESPONSES
As my sleep schedule is becoming too continental for now, here’s my answer to some stuff you talked about in thread. Mostly clarifications about what I meant in earlier proposals, you are of course free to not pick things up and I am not trying to play loremaster.
It's a neat idea. From that proposal it has both perks and subclasses right? So how do they interact From what it's written there it looks like they're independent. There's also the matter of what is a "slot"?
I imagined the Perks would be something that fits the class, the Subclass would be going all in on the same niche the Perk services. Pathfinder (Perk) - > Ranger (Subclass)
Slot I probably just meant the same placing on a card, as we are talking about generic items for a cyoa. Not sure anymore though the meaning shouldn’t change much
For the other human race (the one with elves and giants and stuff) how about something like 'the primal race' to show it's full of old precursor races to contrast to the new Human race?
Sounds good to me, the “Human Realm” has long been a candidate for a rename
Human Universal
What I meant here was that these Races are something all 9 Primal Worlds have in common. These occur on Origin World and Target World. That encompasses Constructs, which are simply made by humanity, humanity, which used to be everywhere, hounds, which can technically follow humanity
everywhere, Elementals, which just emerge on all Worlds.
That’s in distinction to the World Specific Races, though I think I put humans into Origin World for clarity’s sake it might have made everything more confusing.
The rest of the categories work in similar fashion: Divine/Demonic x Universal are creatures that come from those realms and can thus be on all Primal Worlds, while Divine/Demonic x World are corruptions that happened on that world and lack the ability to leave in the same way.
They aren’t hard categories, but I hope you get the connecting strings. We have to order them somehow imo.
Before that, what specifically is this whole target world business? Is it just the world we're specifically trying to colonize? If so, why does it have monsters and stuff- would that mean the other 8 worlds don't have those races?
There are 9 Worlds. There is one humanity survived on (Origin World), got strong enough on to at least dominate the world and they are now venturing out to colonize Target World, another of the 9 Primals. This setup allows for the colonization angle someone off-handedly requested and to theoretically just make more worlds should this end up well.
Anon... Only Ouroboros knows that. He's the one who made the chart.
Pretty much all of that has been in the thread before. Not the chart, but the ideas of corruptions or targeting another world. Are my write-ups just unintelligible?
Either way you guys have a full creative license anyway. If I don’t like the way something is going I can speak up. Sorry if I have dominated the conversation too much recently.
Hmm... Then settling on anything race related might be hard. We can't really fill out the race chart when we don't know what the categories are, and we can't know what the categories are if we don't know what those categories are actually based on.
Make your own! But I hope I clarified it now? I can make a neater write-up too if it’s preferred, explaining all categories and providing sample races to illustrate the system. If I am moving to fast don’t be afraid to call it out please.
Honestly seems like the main mechanical sections are on lock at the moment until we catch Ouroboros
I just sit in a corner and come up with numbers, you can rip it apart and reassemble it if you want. Or just make your own placeholder I can critique later.
We might have to consider just talking about it in thread during the normal hours so the project doesn't get stretched out for months.
We would have to strike a less conversational tone then because I personally think the divide into “here be MP” and secret hours is a good one. Let’s see, if it gets really unproductive it’s better than just dropping it though.
Paimons response to “why are people being incarnated again”
Love the angle about the ritual itself being the point, not the outcome. We can combine that with my own picture of reincarnees being used as pawns by Gods and Demons for other ends, mostly against each other (they cooperate only when necessary, and Ancient Humans, the necessity, is gone now.
Also leaves room for the secret Illuminati order of old humanity that tries to oppose them and gets painted as an antagonist in the cyoa?
Oh, here's a thought. The Demon Realm is a giant monster. The Human Realm is 9 planets. What if the God Realm is one of those huge flat worlds with medieval cosmology where the sun and stuff revolves around the center of the plane? Or if anyone knows more hindu, we could try to base the God World off of hindu cosmology.
Their aspect is order so I like the thought. Anything stripped of chaotic reality.
It's a nice idea, but considering they're going to get that Hindu palette swap later on we have to go with the hindu inspired cosmology.. Of which i know nothing about.
There’s no reason to be confined like that imo. Also, Hindu cosmology is already tied in: the demon (lower) realm and divine (upper) realm with the human realm In the middle is, to my understanding, hindu. That said I am much more in favor of mixing themes in a meaningful way rather than making it 0 or 100.
But i guess it would require some change if we implement that teleporting idea (i'm still a reincarnation supremacist). But if the purpose of the ritual is to revive the old humans, why bring up demon/god souls? Shouldn't they just go around reviving humans?
The ritual is an atrocity against all realms and completely unpredictable, basically making new souls from parts of others?
Also in case my conversation with Anon got interpreted as favoring teleportation, that is not the case. I wanted to avoid static portals and the like and proposed a hybrid that would be partial reincarnation, partial teleportation from Origin to Target world. It wouls still basically have been reincarnation. Though that’s discarded with the Black Ritual idea which I like more. If it’S about something else disregard.
So what would it be for precisely? Do all reincarnators get buffed to absurd levels or are the PCs simply special?
I’d argue they simply go for a certain “size” and things obviously don’t fit. That’s why we get wacky hybrid races.
Eldritch space horrors
For the sake of not sinking the kitchen let’s avoid those outside of references by madmen. It would only detract from the nice three way conflict we already have imo.
My take on the significance of reincarnation is that it’s a way of cooperation again, as souls get built up over generations and always carry more with them than before. The other races may have the same: divine souls get more and more specialized in their class and demonics get stronger and stronger (race). Pulling the player together from all of that really showcases just how big a crime against the universe the reversal ritual is.
Mass Isekaijin warfare sure sounds like a funny war.
After we’ve made all 7 world dlcs it’s time again lmao
Astral Remnants: the 101, Cosmos
The cosmos the CYOA will take place in is divided into the three Realms: they are the Primal Realm, the cradle of humanity; the Divine Realm, the dominion of Gods and Angels who rule it with mechanical precision and an order that emphasizes the role of the individual as part of the metaphorical clockwork of the collective; and the Demonic Realm, where atop the back of the strongest of all demons the entire race is fighting for second place as he (or she?) drifts through the torn remains of a shattered plane that once hosted them.
In ancient times, the three realms had reached a stalemate. The ancestors of those we know call humans were the first among the inhabitants of the Primal Realm, in harmony with all of it’s 9 Worlds and masters of the reincarnation cycle, harnessing it to grow stronger through the aeons.
All three realms were constantly probing each other, attempting to break through and when they did, fighting to remain, yet none was powerful enough to gain permanent foothold anywhere.
While the situation remained the same for times untold, it became apparent the ancient humans were profiting the most of stasis, for they grew ever stronger whereas the celestial collective and demonic overlords were confined in growth to what they could make theirs. Thus an agreement was struck on the Otherside, the border between the Realm of Demons and Realm of Gods, the furthest reach of the cosmos away from the Primal Realm: an alliance was forged, or rather a pact, to assail the Prime from both sides and overwhelm those they eyed so jealously. The spoils were to be split, and it would be a fair war from there on – no more harnessing inner mysteries and becoming more than one is, as those rule-breaking humans had done so unfairly.
And so the Astral War started, and ended as was to be expected. With all ancient mysteries lost to the void, and eight of nine worlds wiped completely clean of humanity of old, who were brought down by the very thing that had made them strong in an ironic twist that saw Demons and Gods betray their very nature.
This is because each of the three Realms has an aspect that sets it apart from the others. The absolute order of the divine sees each creature as part of a whole, the collective, and the collective can only ever grow from ordering the parts better and acquiring more.
Their aspect thus is the Class, a role written into the very soul and empowering the individual in the name of the collective.
The Demons on the other hand are the ultimate dominators, the whole can only be as strong as its parts, they think, if they do, and thus they aspire to be and become the strongest they can possibly be. Theirs is an order of submission to the strong and subjugation of the weak, of evolution and of breaking the mold.
Their aspect is the Race, the shape of the individual who claws its way to the top and bows to none weaker than it.
The Primal Realm is beholden to the aspect of cooperation. Parts play roles, to their best ability and sometimes more, yet what emerges from cooperation is always more than the sum of its parts. This was what had seen the precursors of humanity grow even in stalemate, as they had found ever new ways of cooperating among themselves without needing any more or less.
Their aspect is Skill, that which the individual can put in service of others yet hone at the same time.
Demons and Gods had to resort, in hints, to the domain of the Prime to beat it, a fact that would no doubt bring glee if there was anyone left to feel it.
The nine worlds of the Primal Realm lie empty of any greater connection now. The Wills of the Worlds, the greatest of souls and mothers to life, are left to their own devices and lacking a connection to bring about true cooperation again. In the greatest perversion of cosmic order, Gods and Demons are conspiring still: the wheel of reincarnation, the jewel of the Prime Realm, the treasury containing the wealth of old humanity, has been knocked from it’s axis. To keep the Prime in it’s weakened state indefinitely, they are spinning it in the opposite direction, ripping souls from where ever they may be, tearing them, and sewing them back together in the greatest perversion yet seen in any realm. These grand Black Rituals are now the last remnant of cooperation between realms, as the split of the Primal has devolved into a game of multiplanetary chess of Gods and Demons, who vie for control of eight worlds. A great part of that play the Remnants: the souls of ancient times and unseen futures, ripped off their course and combined into horrendous amalgams by the Black Rituals. Lost and devoid of any place in the world, many gladly take offers made by their ‘rescuers’, and inadvertently find their act in the cosmic tragedy.
Not all about this new order seems set in stone though. The last of the nine worlds, the one that still bore remnants of ancient humanity, has seen them recover and form a global order of many voices yet again, as they prepare to set out to one of the other eight worlds to reclaim what’s theirs.
This brings us to the stage of the CYOA: the World that is the target of Human colonial ambition on one hand, and caught up in the squabble of Demons and Gods on the other. This is were most Remnants are converging, drawn by the plots of all three Realms. Whether they will come to savor the freedom outside of any known order or remember where they came from, only time will tell.
This is now the Cosmos of the Astral Remnants, those ambassadors of their own timelines, may they be the phoenix of humanity, demonic dragons, or bringers of an order none has foreseen.
Astral Remnants: the 102, Mechanics
Each Remnant, or Player, will initially choose the very core of their soul, the Realm they originate from. As reversing the Wheel of Reincarnation has ununderstood effects on all of the cosmos, much like the wheel of a clockwork mechanism suddenly reversing course, this has little bearing in term of allegiance as the universe struggles to keep up with itself.
The soul of a Remnant is made of many parts, haphazardly ripped from the cosmic order and sewn together to make something never seen before in an undirected, uncalculated act of creation and destruction at the same time. The power of the Black Ritual determines the strength of the soul-patchwork created, this is while all Players have the same Pool of points to build from.
The pool is composed of two currencies: Crowns, the raw strength of the soul, which is used to buy the higher 3 of the 6 possible tiers. The other are Chains, the link between world and soul, used for the lower 3 of the 6 possible tiers.
Both of these currencies are used to buy Vessels: think of these as Slots for your build that will later be filled with options. They determine how many options you can take from later sections, and how strong the result will be.
Each player starts with 6 Crowns and 51 Chains. In addition, the previous choice about the Origin of the soul grants another Crown that comes with a limitation: it can only be used for the purchase of a Class, if the player is of Divine Origin; a Race for the Demonic Origin; or a skill for the Primal Origin. Why the numbers are like that is too much to explain in this quick introduction, trust that there are reasons that can be elaborated on.
The Vessels, as introduced, pertain to Class, Race, Skill. Each of those is a separate Section. The player can buy multiple vessels of multiple tiers for each. A vessel of a particular tier contains everything that is necessary to reach this tier: one does not need to buy first tier 1 to then buy tier 2 and so on. After this Inner Soul section of the CYOA the player can then move on to the other sections knowing how much they can choose in each. The currencies used here are not used elsewhere in any major way, which avoids the problem of blowing it all early and then having to cut choices later as one discovers more sections. The player needs to have at least one tier in Class, Race, Skill each. The reason they don’t get this for free is that it’s mathematically the same and granting it would clash with some builds. Again, trust, there is a reason.
The next Section is Race. This will be a massive list. As the Player already knows the Tier (actually called Tier here) they will be able to buy, they are now tasked with choosing their Path there. Path means the following: a Tier 6 race Vessel does not only contain a Tier 6 race, it contains all of the previous tiers too. A Tier 6 vessel needs to be filled with a choice for T6, one for T5, and so on. Each Race offers different options based on which Tier it is chosen for, these options are called Perks. The Path one player takes to Tier 6 for example can be entirely different from another Player’s even if they have all the same Races contained on paper, just because they chose them in a different order. Additionally, some Races have free Perk choices too, as in they are not locked to a specific tier. This is especially relevant with high tier races, as those can obviously only chosen late into the Path. The freed-up Perk slots are instead filled with very powerful Subrace Perks, that offer a wider variety of flavors for high tiers, while Races that start at lower Tiers are a broader base that synergize better with many choices.
Additionally, there is nothing forcing a Player to branch out of a certain base race if they like it: they can “double down” and just progress through the Tiers of that Race, filling their Vessel that way. All of that can be combined in a free-flowing system that allows relatively vanilla choices or the pinnacle of the soul-patchworks the lore refers to.
The middle Section is Class. Hopefully no less massive than Race, but with slightly bigger entries containing more individual choice. Likewise, the Player already knows the Vessel-size and can get started on their juiciest options straight away. Class is not fully discussed yet, so I will update this section when we got it fleshed out. I wont walk away without making it about Fusions and Multiclassing for emergent flavor though.
The last major Section for Soul-creation is Skill. Squarely in the middle on the fleshed-out scale, I will lay out what we have.
There will be multiple kinds of Skills, ordered by categories. As this CYOA will lack attributes and stats, exceptional qualities like physical strength will be one. Magic and martial prowess will make major categories too, as will Race-/Class-exclusives and pretty much anything pertaining to actions.
Tiers for Skills will be called Levels, and they are very much a progression from weak to strong. There will be choices between Versatility within the skill or Specializing in particular sub-fields.
A major feature is the Fusion system, in which a player appends skills to one another to make a unique Skill-chain that might describe fighting styles, magic schools, or whatever else you come up with. As in previous sections a Vessel for a Skill pays for all contained in it.
There will be interconnections between the categories. Race Perks or Class Features might grant Levels in Skills, that kind of thing. This also breaks the constraints of the Inner Soul currencies somewhat, as particular choices might boost you high enough to squeeze out another Tier 6 in anything and the like.
Inner Soul and Race zig-zag 5/1 (Ouroboros)
I have read your discussion in the last thread, and I was indeed not present so thanks for postponing the mechanics talk. That said, I tried to make a new draft that incorporates the key components that are dear to me as well as the progression Macha (?) didn’t want to have axed. It should hopefully combine these feature:
A multilayered currency system to discourage top heavy builds that only spend on the highest tiers
B playing excellence in class, race and skill out against each other by making them draw from the same pool
C Preserving a sense of progression rather than buying straight into some Race
D Allowing to spin flavor via combinations instead of choosing a Race
E Offer interesting mechanics without getting convoluted
Basically, we are trying to get the best of the extremes. Overlord (Text) has amazing combinations and you can make just about anything (within the setting, which is not a limit of system but ingredients) at the price of nobody actually giving a fuck because working through the builds is a chore, and I say this as the autist writing the third draft by now.
The other extreme would be something like Celestial Aria: one glimpse at the Class choice and you know what you are getting, more or less.
So my actual proposal this time is to split the layers, again, and reconsider how races are presented.
My previous proposition about currency (Chains, Crowns) would be moved to the Inner Soul section of the CYOA entirely. Races would be free or use another currency if necessary. The Soul currency would be used to define your Soul, in this case as a series of “Vessels” that can contain Race, Class, Skill. These are the caps you will have to adhere to later, visible at a glance.
In the following sections these vessels can be filled in whichever combinations the players sees fit.
Step 0: You are a Soul traversing from Origin World to Target World. You have 5 Crowns and 43 Chains (subtracted the 9 for free Tier 1ŝ as both of you voted).
Step 1: Choose your Path to the new world.
- Demonic (+1 Crown that can only be spent on Race)
- Divine (+1 Crown that can only be spent on Class)
- Human (+1 Crown that can only be spent on Skill)
Step 2: Choose the shape of your Soul. Your Soul currencies can only be used here. You start with one Tier 1 Race Vessel, one Grade 1 Class Vessel, one Level 1 Skill Vessel for free. - (Universal price table for Vessels)
- Vessels are direct-buy. You don’t need to buy previous tiers
Step 3: NEW SECTION RACE
- every race has 6 “Perk” items on the card. For a starting race at tier 1, these are all locked behind further tiers. The later a race starts, the more of those tier-locked Perks are replaced by free choices. So a tier 1 Race would have 5 other items to unlock by progressing within the same race, while a tier 6 would have a buffet of impactful options that are mutually exclusive because there is no way you can get 2 T6 races.
- you have to draw a path to higher-tier races. A tier 5 Vessel wouldn’t be filled by just a single tier 5 choice, you have to choose a tier 1, a tier 2 and so on as well. So a Tier 5 vessel-haver could choose to pick Human and just take all 5 Perks he gets that way, or he could start human, progress to Beastfolk, get demonically tainted and become a Succubus, then leave the body behind and become a Dragon. That would net the appropriate perk from each Race. As Perks are locked to specific tiers, people would be encouraged to diversify. Particularly the mid-tier choices are heavily boosted by this as they become a stepping stone. Comes with so much material for backstories.
Step 4: NEW SECTION CLASS
- either mirror Races somewhat or a new system. Didn’t get around to it yet.
Step 5: NEW SECTION SKILLS
- direct buy with Fusion Chains. Read the criticism of this but I am unconvinced. Forcing Fusions convolutes the process of making a build imo. We would either have to offer an exponential amount of options (not happening, I can’t stress enough how many this would have to be) or expect every one who wants to be a cool sword dude to come up with combinations which would be arbitrary and often disregarded. My Fusion-chain model give the benefits without the downsides. You can still make all combinations you want, but they would be something the player actively crafts and describes rather than something they’re forced into.
Step 6: Your life before the Transcendence, party building, factions, whatever. Can use a new currency as proposed on Rentry
Step 7: Some options for the Target World, ie location etc. Can use a new currency as proposed on Rentry for items etc. Maybe a fun item building section?
Step 8: ….?
Step 9: Fun for the whole threadily
Terminology and misc 4/30 (Ouroboros)
The Three Character-building Sections: Race, Class, Skill
Section: Race
Ordered by Origin and Tier
Race (Example: Human)
Name: Human
Description: The primary inhabitants of the Human Realm. They have come to dominate Origin World and are now looking out to new astral shores.
Origin: Human Realm (rename?)
(Min.) Tier: 1
Perk at T1: Adaptive: Gain a free t1 Skill (can be taken multiple times)
Perk at T2: Patronage: Choose any option from the Patronage Skill (can be taken multiple times)
Perk at T3: Talented: Upgrade any Skill by 1 tier up to tier 4
Perk at T5: Path of the Ancient: Something flavorful
Race (Example: Goblin)
Name: Goblin
Description: A mirror of humans corrupted by demonic influence. Their strongest evolve, drastically enhancing their capabilities. They live only to destroy.
Origin: Demonic
(Min.) Tier: 1
Perk at t2: Evolve to a Hobgoblin, gaining one tier in the Strength Skill for free
Perk at t3: Evolve to a Postgoblin, gaining a free t3 skill
Perk at t4: Evolve to a Metagoblin, gaining 2 inches (to height)
Perk at t5: Evolve to a Goblinking. Gain 1 tier in Class:Beastmaster: Slaver for free
Race (Example: Reanimator)
Name: Reanimator
Description: A spirit imbued with divine (rename?) energy. This one has taken a dead, soul-less body for an anchor that connects it to the world.
Origin: Divine
Min. Tier: 2
Requirement: 1 tier in any other Race
Perk (mandatory): Undeath. You can no longer take tiers in any race but this one. Gain 1 free tier in Skill Resilience, but never be above 4.
Perk: Driven by Mastery: Ignore your mortal limits and re-apply a perk you already have that relates to a Skill (Can be taken multiple times)
Perk: Driven by Purpose: Ignore your mortal limits and re-apply a perk you already have that relates to a Class (Can be taken multiple times)
Perk: something thematic
Race (Example: Herbivore Beastfolk)
Name: Herbivore Beastfolk
Description: A humanoid with features of a herbivore roaming the world. They are true masters of their natural environment and bring natural advantages of their beast part.
Origin: Human Realm
Min. Tier: n
Perk at tier n: Home Advantage: Choose any option from the Nature Skill for free. Must be related to your species (Can be taken multiple times)
Perk at n+1: Natural Utility: Choose any Skill from the Group Body
Perk at 5: Natural Specialization: Upgrade any skill by 1 tier for free. Must be related to your species
Section: Skills
Ordered by Group and Alphabet
Skill (Example: Patronage)
Name: Patronage
Group: Misc/Magical/noclueyet
Kind: Pool: These are of the same power-level and not dependant on eachother
Description: Someone’s watching out for and guiding you, or so you believe. It has driven you either way.
Item 1: Patron of War: You believe in some deity (not like Gods in this cyoa necessarily) related to war, gaining a boon.
Item 2: Patron of Travel
Item 3: Patron of Work
Item 4: Patron of Magic
Item 5: Patron of Butterflies
Item 6: Patron of Meds
Item 7:
Skill (Example: Strength)
Name: Strength
Group: Body
Kind: Tiered: These are a progression from weakest to strongest, and the lower are prerequisites to the higher tiers.
Description: A boost to peak power and endurance, beyond what is obvious
Level 0: Foot in the door. Better than not having it
Level 1: Peak of what can be expected of your form
Level 2: Stronger than it looks
Level 3: Totally god-slaying
Level 4: No idea about the powerlevels yet
Level 5: Cthulhu shivers
Level 6: Enough force to to cause gravity singularity on impact
Skill (Example: Resilience)
Name: Resilience
Group: Body
Kind: Tiered: These are a progression from weakest to strongest, and the lower are prerequisites to the higher tiers.
Description: A boost to robustness of the body and its cohesion, beyond what is obvious
Levels: see above
Skill (Example: Nature)
Name: Nature
Group: Knowledge
Kind: Pool: These are of the same power-level and not dependant on eachother
Description: A slight advantage to everything done in said biome: fighting, living...
Item 1: Flatlands (Plains etc)
Item 2: Woodlands (Forest etc)
Item 3: Wetlands (Swamp etc)
Item 4: Badlands (Deserts etc)
Item 5: Snowlands (Arctic etc)
Item 6: Wavelands (Ocean etc)
Item 7: Pleblands (Urban)
Accepted
[Long discussions or proposals that got accepted and are relevant for anyone joining late and future discussions. These can appear in the table of content, but preferably only as one descriptive title]
Point pool/skills/races Proposal 4/29 (Ouroboros)
[With supplementary race chart posted in the thread. That's last in the read order.]
[Since kindly transcribed by Paimon.]
Currency system:
The whole is called Mana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mana_(Mandaeism), the “treasure” and equivalent to the part of the soul (Nous in greek) that determines what is real and isn’t, in a broad sense. “Treasure” in connection to the “garment of the soul” is a nice word. Also a word everyone associates with magic so that isn’t immediately off-putting. Just get dressed.)
There is one currency used for the ‘mundane’ first three tiers symbolized by two chain links (for the sepirah of Yesod, the connection between World and Soul) and one for the ‘arcane’ higher three symbolized by the inverted/upside down Crown (for the inner/human ‘sephirah’ of Da’ath as opposed to the Divine Keter, if you are inclined). A third currency will be elaborated on later.
They are derived from the same base but the lesser currency (Chain) is adjusted to the primes to encourage certain behaviors (and because I like prime numbers) and the higher is then simplified for less math, though the ratio is preserved by making it a separate currency. This allows for some limiting design choices by allowing conversion only in certain scenarios, allowing races for some strengths in certain areas for example. The absolute treat is free tier-ups, which should be used extremely sparsely as rewards for investing heavily into a race for example.
Conversions upwards (Belial), to the Crown currency, should only be granted when referencing a sub-set of options, otherwise people will use it to squeeze as many of the supposedly rarer tiers out of the currency supposed to be invested into the lower tiers. This allows for the lower tiers to be dispensed more liberally, allowing for more flavorful options to be picked without sacrificing potential and theme.
Conversion downwards (Gamaliel), to the Chain currency, should be granted when thematically appropriate and fluffed as a burn-your-power kind of deal. Mechanically, they should be kept open.
Doubling down on/upgrading a race or class should be handled in the lower currency regardless of tier reached, and be capped at tier 3 tiers above starting, exceptions allowed (Humans, Goblins, Angels/Nephilim?). They should be a little weaker than the other options, but make up for it in lower price. The primary advantage is the retention of the more rare Crown currency to then invest into class/skill.
[The following is confusing. It's a remnant of my own work process. Cross-reference the conversion prices in the Skills segment of this proposal to get how I got the numbers.The headers say X because I wasn't sure if I could leave them blank.]
Pool Possibilities (they don't all check out! I messed with the distributions! Just illustrative! Do not fix!):
| Tier | x | x | x | x | x | = x |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| T1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 16 | 8 | = 24 |
| T2 | 3 | 0 | 8 | 0 | 2 | = 14 |
| T3 | 2 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 1 | = 13 |
=> 51 Chain irregular cost due to autism. I will not change it for math reasons. Numerological perfection as well. Trust the plan.
| Tier | x | x | x | x | x |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| T4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 6 |
| T5 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 0 |
| T6 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
=> 6 Crowns = 144 Chain
This should ultimately be retained in structure in my opinion. Outliers focusing on wide range notwithstanding, a build should primarily be easy to read and easier to elaborate on for Multiplayer, while compromising as little as possible at the cost of complexity, I am thus very much in favor of zig-zagging choices as proposed for races/classes and, in a separate system, skills. It gives a picture quickly but can be elaborated on extensively.
To that end, another currency conversion from (lesser/Chain/Yesod) soul may be in order, as energy is invested into worldly existence (Malkuth/World). As a symbol I propose a globe as a familiar short-hand for World. This allows for the more granular Level-based skill calculations as proposed earlier. The rate for that can be determined at a later point.
Skills
| Tier | Cost (Chains) | Boons |
|---|---|---|
| Tier 0 | 1 | Potential to learn, foot in the door, little utility |
| Tier 1 | 3 | Basic Capability |
| Tier 2 | 7 | Expertise at 1 |
| Tier 3 | 13 | Broad Expertise OR synergy with another |
| Specialization | v | Conversions |
| Diversification | ^ | Conversions |
| Tier 4 | 24 | Mastery at 1 |
| Tier 5 | 48 | True Mastery at 1 OR synergy with another |
| Tier 6 | 96 | Broad Mastery OR Legendary Mastery in 1 |
Note: shift the already proposed level scale and make 6 the absolute pinnacle (for players. Old humans and gods/demons in their realm can be a hypothetical 7). The 1-10 levels are the path, not the goal. A tier 0 level 5 is half way there.
Synergies are for combining skills. There are different ways to combine them. 3 – 3 in two skills, 5 – 5 in two skills, 5 in one and 3 in two. This offers a compromise between freedom and communicability. A Swordmaster at tier 5 could, for example, synergize with Elemental Magic (Fire) and Elemental Resist (Fire); be a Weapon specialist with True Mastery in swordsmanship; or be a Sword & Board master at Tier 5 shield + sword. At Tier 6 he can either ascend to Legendary Mastery in his main weapon (note that synergy comes at the cost of True Mastery and this gets mitigated here, a fact I like) or choose to become a jack of all trades within the Skill and attain the mastery of tier 4 with ALL weapons rather than choosing one.
This replaces the proposed Variant Skills, which would turn into synergies we have to make possible and can point out as options specifically by making the ‘Ingredients’ available as skills.
As skills might run on a different currency, racial perks pertaining to this system must be translated to skills, which makes it possible to elegantly present them in the Race selection as “Gain Winged Combat skill and choose one of these: Hard Scales, Draconic Dick, Sharp Claws”. Some skills should be accordingly locked. This also allows to reward taking a race multiple times, to get all of the offered boons. If a player chooses less, they gain the freedom to mix traits of various races which would allow a plurality of racial options I am not sure I have ever seen in a cyoa.
For some of the proposed Variant Skills it may be in order to offer Limited Skills that can only be chosen to synergize with. For example, self application (for Disguise magic) could be translated into “Magic Crafting: Buffs” or something and then be combined with illusion magic at t3/t5 for 2 degrees of power. Meanwhile true illusion casting would always be more powerful than what synergetic item crafting can offer. Perhaps instead kinda of magic could inherently come with a choice to apply to self, outside world, allies, foes (as debuffs) instead, to mirror the subskills weapons offer and allowing to mirror the Maximum Mastery of Tier 4 for everything in the category OR Legendary Mastery at Tier 6 in one field OR t5 synergy between two.
This whole paragraph is very much up for debate.
Races
This category depends on the Soulbase chosen in the Inner Soul section, which should also serve as a little exposition of the three thematic extremes of Human/Divine/Demonic. Alternatively, it can be the Path taken into the other World if we go with the Colonial/World Exploration angle, which would see the player Isekai/Portal into the Otherworld and put them into the “tainted” body there. This would retain the common origin and preserve the cosmology while explaining why players end up in highly idiosyncratic bodies based on races that may not even exist on the given world.
Depending on base soul (or Path) players should receive 1 Crown to spend in race (demons), class (gods) or skill (humans). This crown needs to be detracted from the pool. This retains the already massive freedom while still giving the Soulbase an impact.
As we have already discussed at length there need to be Human Universal races, Divine Races, and Demonic Races. Underconsidered until now has been the aspect of the multiple Worlds, which have distinct character (Worldsoul) and thus races. I propose the pool of available races to be based on those origins. The target world and origin world should be origins too, and if we ever choose to make another world for this that would get another (and maybe other corruptions).
Additionally we talked about corrupted races as an explanation for vampires, fey; and bestial (as in non-anthropomorph) races of the various origins. As the idea of using them as shadows/black mirrors of the racial qualities was only partially incorporated I propose we use them instead closer to known tropes and make them Inbetweeners accessible from 2 origins.
This does not need to be reflected mechanically, but every race should have a home within the world building and especially demons should be incentivized to “rank up” within the tree while divines should be incentivized to pick not by tier but by what Role/Class is granted and then staying pure. A weaker demon should be of a lower racial tier, a very strong Divine can have a low racial tier but make up for it in class tier.
Let’s start with tier 0, the hypothetical point of origin (to have multiple connected tier 1s) and the hypothetical tier 7s that are not playable: Ancient Humans (The Cooperators), Supreme Divine (The Directors), Apex Demons (The Dominators). Worldraces having a tier 7 too is fun, so let’s add a tier for the Origin and the Target world when we have a theme/flavor for them. The Corrupted/ Inbetweener races should not have hypothetical tier 7s, as they lack a Realm to reach this in and necessarily have parts to them that are foreign to the realm they are in. Mechanically they are still allowed to reach the same heights as tier 7 isn’t playable and just for world building anyway.
This leaves a Framework to formulate and fill out with the ideas already collected. Which is posted in the thread. Elaboration will probably be necessary and adjustments may be made, however I believe the coverage is quite good and it leaves us with less redundancy: after all, the goal is to preserve a wide range of option but also make choices matter. There is, in my opinion, little need to slam 50 kinds of beast people in there when we can instead narrow it down to Herbivore/Carnivore and then grant skills vaguely associated with that. This provides MORE options while requiring LESS reading and balancing.
[There's a chart made in Calc supposed to be here. Pasting it was a nightmare. It's in the thread. Link when I posted it.]
[I did a thing. Do you like it? (Paimon)]
[Yes, thanks a ton!] (Ouroboros)
| Tier | Divine | Fey | Undead/Animators | Monsters/JRPG | Human Universal | ??? | Rakshasa/Worldly Demons | ??? | Demonic | ??? |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Corruption | Not Corrupted | Corrupted: Divine x World (Target) | Corrupted Divine x Human (Universal) | Not Corrupted | Not Corrupted | Not Corrupted | Corrupted: Demon x World (Target) | Corrupted: Demonic x Human Universal | Not Corrupted | Corrupted: Divine x Demonic |
| Root | Origin (Divine) | No Root | No Root | Origin (Target World) | Origin: Human | Origin World | No Root | No Root | Origin: Demonic | No Root |
| ??? | Role (Divine Plan) | Role (World) | Anchor (World) | Niche (World) | Skill | Niche (World) | Parasitic Niche (World) | Parasitic Niche (Universal) | Orders of Magnitude | Absolute Reason |
| Tier 1 (General) | Messenger | ??? | Incorporal (None) | Omnivore Scavenger | ??? | The Universal Basis | Cowardly Oppurtunism | ??? | ??? | Existence |
| Tier 1 (Specific) | Uthra (Angel) | ??? | Wisp | Slime | ??? | Human | Goblins | ??? | Imp | ??? |
| Tier 2 (General) | Worker | Observe Object | Re-Animator (Body) | Vegtarian | The Loyal Companion | ??? | Attempted Coordination | Trailing Menace | ??? | Servitude |
| Tier 2 (Specific) | Nephilim / Angel of | Pixie/Sprite | Skeleton/Zombie | Appropriate Beastfolk | Hound/Sentient Beasts | ??? | Dragonkin | Wyvern | Lesser Demon | ??? |
| Tier 3 (General) | Soldier | ??? | Animator/Poltergeist (Any) | Carnivorous Packhunter | Not a Slot | The Attuned | Predatory Leeching | ??? | ??? | Duty |
| Tier 3 (Specific) | Angel of / Nehilim | ??? | Living Armor/Weapon | Appropriate Beastfolk | ??? | Elves | Succubus/Incubus | ??? | Demon | ??? |
| Tier 4 (General) | Overseer | Guard Place | Location/Haunt | Omnivore Apex | The Surging | ??? | Beastly Hunt | Calculating Profiteering | ??? | Concept |
| Tier 4 (Specific) | Archangel/Throne | Dryad/Nymph | Shrinespirit, Ghost | Your Choice | Elementals | ??? | Dire/Demonic Beast | Devil (Faustian) | Strong Demon | ??? |
| Tier 5 (General) | Herald | ??? | Possession (Living) | Carnivorous Apex | ??? | The Empowered | Terror Regime | ??? | ??? | Loyalty |
| Tier 5 (Specific) | Seraph | ??? | Vampire/Death Knight | Your Choice | ??? | Giants | Demonic/Dire Possession | ??? | Greater Demon | ??? |
| Tier 6 (General) | Director | Enact Concept | Break-Out (of anchor) Possession | World Incarnation | The Constructed | ??? | Territorial Stakes | Outright Subjugation | ??? | WIll |
| Tier 6 (Specific) | God (Manifestation) | Reaper/Fey Court/Season | Lick/Minor Nature God | Your Choice | Androids/Golems | ??? | Demon Lord (Maou) | Dragon | Demon Lord (Granter of Wishes) | ??? |
Scrapyard
[A section to store old proposals and ideas in for later reference. These should ideally not appear in the table of content.]
Race Chart
| Tier | Humanoid | Divine | Undead | Demon | Fey | Beast | Dragon | Monster | Monster | Monster |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Tier 1 | Human | Nephilim | Skeleton | Goblin | Pixie | Beastman | Kobold | Minish | Sahuagin | Slime |
| Tier 1 | Dwarf | Valkyrie | Zombie | Imp | Dryad | Kitsune | Lizardman | Tanuki | Mermaid | Orc |
| Tier 2 | Elf | Lesser Spirit | Ghost | Hobgoblin | Faerie | Centaur | Pseudodragon | Harpie | Lamia | Insect Soldier |
| Tier 2 | Amazoness | Diva | Ghoul | Succubus | Treant | Dire Beast | Wyvernling | Mimic | Gargoyle | Troll |
| Tier 3 | Doppleganger | Spirit | Living Armor | Lesser Demon | Spriggan | Spirit Beast | Dragonewt | Alraune | Dridder | Hive Leader |
| Tier 3 | Oni | Angel | Wraith | Witch | Gnome | Lycanthrope | Dinosaur | Ogre | Roc | Siren |
| Tier 4 | Giant | Greater Spitit | Lich | Devil | Undine | Beast Warlord | Dragonkin | Sphinx | Golem | Rakshasa |
| Tier 4 | Tengu | Archangel | Vampire | Greater Demon | Slyph | Devourer | Dragon | Minotaur | Chimera | Medusa |
| Tier 5 | Immortal | Reaper | Vampire Noble | Majin | Salamander | Chaos Beast | Dragon Lord | Hydra | Phoenix | Android |
| Tier 6 | Titan | God | Vampire Progenitor | Demon King | Royal Fey | Divine Beast | Emperor Dragon | Disaster Slime | Genie | Dungeon Lord |
Alt Race List
| Tier | Humanoid | Divine | Undead | Demon | Fey | Beast | Dragon | Monster | Monster | Monster | Spirits | Divine Beasts | Constructs |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Tier 1 | Human | Nephilim | Skeleton | Goblin | Pixie | Beastman | Kobold | Jinn | Sahuagin | Slime | Homunculi | ||
| Tier 1 | Dwarf | Valkyrie | Zombie | Imp | Dryad | Lizardman | Tanuki | Mermaid | Orc | Undine | Kitsune | Doll | |
| Tier 2 | Elf | Einherjar | Ghost | Hobgoblin | Faerie | Centaur | Pseudodragon | Harpie | Lamia | Insect Soldier | Lesser Spirit | Spirit Beast | |
| Tier 2 | Amazoness | Diva | Ghoul | Succubus | Treant | Dire Beast | Wyvernling | Mimic | Slyph | Gargoyle | |||
| Tier 3 | Doppleganger | Living Armor | Lesser Demon | Spriggan | Chimera | Dragonewt | Alraune | Dridder | Hive Leader | Spirit | Golem | ||
| Tier 3 | Oni | Angel | Wraith | Witch | Banshee | Lycanthrope | Dinosaur | Ogre | Roc | Siren | Gnome | Phoenix | |
| Tier 4 | Giant | Lich | Devil | Dullahan | Beast Warlord | Dragonkin | Sphinx | Rakshasa | Salamander | Colossus | |||
| Tier 4 | Tengu | Archangel | Vampire | Greater Demon | Troll | Devourer | Dragon | Minotaur | Medusa | Greater Spirit | Lung | ||
| Tier 5 | Immortal | Seraph | Vampire Noble | Majin | Fomorian | Dragon Lord | Hydra | Reaper | Auspicious Beast | Android | |||
| Tier 6 | Titan | God | Vampire Progenitor | Demon King | Royal Fey | Chaos Beast | Emperor Dragon | Disaster Slime | Dungeon Lord | Spirit King | Judgement Beast | Mecha |
Skill Cost / Tier Chart
| Skill Level | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Tier 1 (1 Skill) | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 |
| Tier 2 (2 Skills) | 22 | 24 | 26 | 28 | 30 | 32 | 34 | 36 | 38 | 40 |
| Tier 3 (4 Skills) | 84 | 88 | 92 | 96 | 100 | 104 | 108 | 112 | 116 | 120 |
| Tier 4 (8 Skills) | 248 | 256 | 264 | 272 | 280 | 288 | 296 | 304 | 312 | 320 |
| Tier 5 (16 Skills) | 656 | 672 | 688 | 704 | 720 | 736 | 752 | 768 | 784 | 800 |
| Tier 6 (32 Skills) | 1632 | 1664 | 1696 | 1728 | 1760 | 1792 | 1824 | 1856 | 1888 | 1920 |
Transcript of initial idea
88555307
but I wanted to keep playing.
Right attitude, can't have fun without a game.
You know what we should really do in secret hours? Collaborate on a ocyoa
88555362 (You)
Right attitude, can't have fun without a game.
I agree. Getting too caught up on wins and losses is boring.
You know what we should really do in secret hours? Collaborate on a ocyoa
So this is how the knightposting cyoa is born!
88555383
So this is how the knightposting cyoa is born!
Hah. Am the guy who mentioned having a wip on that yesterday, but wouldn't mind recycling ideas and open sourcing it. Would have to make my tard notes legible though
88555400 (You)
True. That is an option. Up to you, we could also discuss and think of something else entirely.
88555427
Also got a quick generic-y fantasy one built around a little bit of meta and narrative roles instead of classes. Probably sounds too abstract so let's call it a party builder emphasizing high contrast characters with many built-in connections to other builds. And a bunch of other stuff
Would volunteer either of that for a kickstart, or be open to start around a different idea from scratch too.
88555362 (You)
You know what we should really do in secret hours? Collaborate on a ocyoa
Maybe each anon can represent a faction, or a deity or something depending on the setting. Then we work together to create history based on the actions of those factions? Does that sound like fun world building?
88555466
That sounds EXTREMELY fun to me as I am a worldbuilding fag by heart. We should still look for a separate thematic hook though. A role to push characters towards. Just a stage isn't enough.
88555483
Considering it was completely barren setting-wise, maybe we can combine those. To put some more cards on the table, it was based around 1 a character type/temperament whatever here you go. I got more undigitalized. https://controlc.com/46410c3a
88555487
Yeah. Market place of ideas and so on
88556920
Good work anon. Also, who here from the end of last secret conversation time is still here? Should I leak something that could be used for the idea we had right near the end before I go to sleep?
88556939
leak it
ANONS WIP
88556945
Secret OC Proposal!?
So... Before I was convinced to do Xianxia things, I actually had already began some legwork on a JRPG/Portal Fantasy hybrid style setting. The idea was that you died and got plucked out of the cycle of reincarnation by the goddess in charge, who asks you to remember who you were in life so she can restore you to the land of the living again.
You'd pick a race and a class, with perks being attached to the classes and races- each race/class gets a couple perks to choose from. You can also buy skills- skills can be leveled up and fused together. Thus the player has to balance between being a highly evolved unit, a high experienced unit, or a highly skilled unit.
The secret lore was supposed to be that both Gods and Demons are not only rivals but also invaders from 2 other universes. The Gods came first and played nice. The Demons came later and got shut out by God propaganda. The Gods want to pick up the pieces after the humans and demons take each other out, but humanity is too strong, and the Gods and Demons join forces instead.
The goal of the goddess is actually to search for remnants of the original human race, as she doesn't actually have complete control over the cycle of reincarnation. The demons also have their own reincarnation deity, and it's only through their cooperation that they can pull off the spell they're using.
Lastly, the worlds themselves have a governing 'will'. By leading their world to subjugate another, the Gods and Demons hope to strengthen their own world and in turn their own race- something they can't accomplish due to interference by the original human race. Instead, the human world's 'will' began to eat away the other two, and that's the reason why there are 3 systems. Demon World (Race System). God World (Class). Human World (Skill).
I doubt we'd want to use the entire idea wholesale, but maybe we can salvage something from it~
Anything that results in fantasy race waifus is supported by me
I liked the idea I had, but it was a bit too ambitious, so I'm happy with donating it to be a group project to get gutted and reworked. In theory it was going to have 100 races and 100 classes, so you can see how it'd be crazy after a while. Even if I could do 5 a day (unlikely) it'd take over a month just to do those two sections myself. but as a thread project it'd be way more reasonable if we wanted to go that crazy.
88556998
88557012
Incidentally, my original plan was just to focus on making every race cool, so it has it's own appeal, rather than trying to obsess over making them all equal, since I think it's fine to have obviously meta options. Oh, right. There was one important thing. If it wasn't obvious, the original human race are the the Jinn
I felt I needed to say that before bed once I remembered it. Sleepy brain almost forgot to say that, even though I felt it was important.
88556960
Original. Like in OC. Is it really that hard?
88556958
This is really cool in general. Portal Fantasy make me happy, and the worlds having their own 'will' is cool. It would offer both opportunities to integrate the "authors play gods" angle anon proposed last thread, which I adore, and a high-powerlevel framework in general.That said, it gives me several ideas interpolating between what has already been presented.
Authors play gods/demon/worlds
A nice way to add spice to that, with different goals and flavors for the world building part.
All that said, I am still personally in favor of limiting the scale. The world can be infinite for all I care but we need a central narrative nexus
Ideas presented so far:
Building up knightposting
Partybuilder
Contributors take on the role of an in-universe god(like being)
God/Demon/World Trias with corresponding build mechanics of Race, Class, Skill
Off-hand mention of a colonial empire mp
88556970
I hear you, but I like mashing things together so how about hybrid diy fantasy race waifus? With anons world-smashing idea we have options.
88557048
Might be one day. (You) can help make it happen apparently.
88557971 (Cross-thread)
Also, to this anon from yesterday that I couldn't reply to- we weren't talking about changing that setting so that we play as gods. What we were talking about is each anon taking control of a god as a creative process to establish the worldbuilding. It was about creating the CYOA and not playing it.
Just in case that was a misunderstanding.
88566172 (You)
Nothing that comes to mind. I feel like the general blueprint is good so far, and there's not a whole lot left to go over when it comes to the overall decision making process for the CYOA. I think it's more a matter of just getting stuff made- like finishing up/tweaking the racial descriptions, writing lore stuff, etc. Getting the different God and Demon personalities sorted and decided on the unique ways each one has influenced the world we'll be stepping into, as well as the impact of the larger divine conflict.
88566261
See, you are thinking too fast! The fact you think what we have is good is already plenty good input. So you like the Saberworldbuilding. With or without the anons-are-gods worldbuilding for the making. With or without the partybuilding wip? So far, one anon has said he doesn't like the anons-are-gods part and 2 or 3 have spoken up in favor of it. 1 guy said the partybuilding looks fun.
Agree that Sabersamas wip is a great base though.
Other ideas were knightposting and colonial MP. Both are up for consideration despite the discrepancy in space within this post as far as I am concerned
88566294 (You)
So you like the Saberworldbuilding
Yep, it seems good so far. Though I'm pretty good with any fantasy setting that includes the racial options presented so far. My taste is a bit generic in that sense, so everything else is just extra for me.
one anon has said he doesn't like the anons-are-gods part
I'm actually the anon who said he didn't like the "anons are gods" idea, because I thought it was suggesting we up the powerlevel while playing the cyoa. As a lorebuilding practice for making it, I think it's a fine idea. Splitting up the labor that way seems like an efficient way to make expansive lore with godly entities that feel like characters themselves. Should make the world more engaging once it's all finished and we enter with actual PCs.
With or without the partybuilding wip
I may have missed the posts detailing what that would look like. But as the anon who tried to encourage/track JRPG traitor parties on a living map, I think my interest in party building can be pretty easily gauged kek
knightposting
It was fun. A fantasy cyoa with those themes and overall atmosphere (Princess Bride tone? Pulp Fantasy? Not sure how you'd describe it) would be really kino
colonial MP
Doesn't get me going much on premise alone, but maybe taken in the right direction it'd tickle my fancy.
88566294 (You)
I'm a big fan of things set between the late 19th/early 20th century, so that colonial mp seam interesting. (At least setting wise.)
88566432
I'm actually the anon who said he didn't like the "anons are gods" idea
Great, that makes that one a no-contest and as I am partial to it I'll shill it until the hivemind takes over.
I may have missed the posts detailing
https://controlc.com/46410c3a
As this is my own, I'd appreciate feedback regarding it no matter whether it ends up fitting the project or no. Especially if it's your thing.
88566452
Maybe we can squeeze a layer of that in then? Sabersama's (I will keep swapping the suffix everytime) idea has different worlds/portals built in. Maybe we could even make it multi-episodes: build a system as a core on a detailed stage like a city/empire, and then have the PCs set out to colonize a new world. That would give us multiple runs to make lore, and maybe get some more anons into editing/worldbuilding/cyoa making while we are at it. Why not also progress the technology level while we are at it?
As you can see, anything goes. Those ideas probably change what we already have too far, but we're here to talk about it so go nuts.
At any rate, we're fairly deep into secret conversation time. Is the anon that was helping take charge with the secret OC plan in? We haven't been getting new proposals, so I figure it's safe to pick our base setting.
88580358 (You)
Given your description, leaning into an Indian theme for the cosmology might be a good idea. My entire understanding of India comes from Guenon and a half-remembered reading of the Upanishads, so I won't be of much help there.
88580431
I don't have any idea about Hinduism apart form some /x/ memes and esoteric symbology used in political contexts. A learning experience. If we retain the collaborative worldbuilding (anons are gods) it wont matter much apart from the terminology for the cosmic entities
88580358 (You)
Pretty much just the basic genre and concept. Assuming we go with my portal fantasy idea, maybe we figure out what kind of world's each of the 3 are. The human world for example was intended to be a generic JRPG world with vaguely medieval tones, but that's open to change.
88580513
So was I, hence the chaotic presentation. MPs have been so fun lately I haven't really put much thought into this beyond the initial prompting. Secret hours are late recently too. I'll whip up a proper summary for another round of criticism/building on it
88566478 (You) (Cross-thread)
88580531 (You)
And I presented it so poorly I'll have to elaborate. Basically, there'd be the cosmic forces as originally presented by you (Demons, Gods, Humans. In Indian). The demons and gods have worlds, maybe one each (?) whereas the human realm in between contains multiple worlds that may either be connected just like the other two or can be connected with a detour over the God/Demon worlds.This would give us an opportunity to make multiple of them. Only one world at a time for the actual MP though. Demon/Angel worlds should either be vast or somehow else limited in what perspective is offered in the cyoa rather than completely understood. Maybe we can add areas to those over time in the same vein.
A singular world would serve as the point of origin for PCs, who would be designed with the ingredients as detailed in your original. They'd then venture forth to another world by grace of either gods or demons, adding the colonialism angle. Wonder if the anon who through that out is even still around.
Whether I made it better or worse I don't know.
88580451 (You)
It's just that the idea of anons being gods feels very Hindu. If I understand correctly, the idea of avatars is of gods screwing around in mortal form, which seems to fit this well.
88580467
even those have never appeared in the history of the 4 territories.
Really? Odd, I could have sworn hearing the Buddha mentioned somewhere in the CYOA.
The founding Jin Emperor is still alive, and the current one was only lent the throne because the founder was busy trying to break through
Now this was an error on my part, I misread the description of the drawback into assuming that he somehow returned from the dead. Still, that can be explained by saying that he fled the Territories after a revolution to search for the Elixir of Immortality, and it is believed by most that he died. The Bai Ze wouldn't particularly be interested in following the Yellow Emperor in the path of cultivation (it has sufficient power already), so it would probably look to serve the next emperor, only to be unable to.
There's also the issue with his strength
To be fair, he was trying to be coercive rather than forceful, and having a concentrated magical bomb suddenly go off in your vicinity would not be handled well by anyone.
88580592
It's just that the idea of anons being gods feels very Hindu. If I understand correctly, the idea of avatars is of gods screwing around in mortal form, which seems to fit this well.
Even more so as we'll be eternally guessing if anon, build is really the avatar of anon, god. Something nice to lean into
88580531 (You)
Well fuck. I read that message. I even replied to it. But somehow I didn't see the link. I feel actually stupid this time. How tired was I?
88580576 (You)
Anyway, the idea that the Human World is a cluster instead of a single world makes sense to me- it would explain why the Human World is so strong that even after it's race got beat, it still started eating the other two. So that's a good idea in my book.
As for the colonialism angle, it's not my kind of thing. Not saying we can't include it, just that my personal vote is that it shouldn't be required of the player. Purely a preference kind of thing.
I'll also add that between demons and angels, there's also secret option 3- join up with the remaining original humans and stage a comeback against gods and demons both. They're both essentially hostile invaders after all.
88580592
Just in case, since we had this misunderstanding before, we aren't talking about the PCs being gods. Just that we could have the authors play the parts of gods as a worldbuilding exorcise. At lest that's what we've been talking about.
88580658
How tired was I?
My exact thoughts when I had to suffer my own message from yesterday. The tax of staying up so late. I am not American.
colonialism
As in "wow new frontier wilderness new world". Not the more contemporary connotations. Conflict would be player-driven. Maybe through which path they took - through the demon world or the god world. What do you mean exactly shouldn't be required by the player. The new world embark? We could put some established infrastructure down in the world building phase so those who want to do something else than explorer frontier life can do so. Doesn't have to be the MO on all worlds either.
Start on The Human World tm, one of the remnants of the war with gods and demons
The demons and gods have since changed tune as humans seem to be persistent bastards
there's still empty worlds though, as d&g werent angels either
humans are slowly reclaiming some of that, puppeteer'd to some degree by gods and demons playing 6d chess against each other and letting them on those worlds
meanwhile, there's also not!illuminati real human remnants that haven't forgotten when humans were the real deal (something something world building gods) and act behind the scenes
some loose thoughts
88580739
Not with the emptied world angle. Plenty of cool ruins instead. And maybe some races the angels/demons seeded. Adding world-specific variety. ...maybe you can sell opium. But we gotta offer fantasy races, that was explicitly on the wishlist
88580714 (You)
Clearly staying up late is the bane of us both.
Anyway, the thing I was talking about for Colonialism is the stress on claiming and raising territories, and acting on behalf of a faction to claim and raise those territories. I'm just not personally enticed by that kind of thing. So when I say it shouldn't be required, I just mean the players shouldn't be forced to fight over territories, resources, or be forced to develop territories. Similarly, I think it's fine if the players don't want a divine sponsor, or even to be involved in the fight between angels and demons at all. But like I said, it's purely a personal preference thing.
If it's just about the land being untamed and wild, with new places to explore that no one knows about, that's 100% cool with me. It's also worth mentioning that there's an option to be one of those original humans in that little WIP image I posted, if a fledgling one.
88580838
We are in agreement then. Never meant to force territory wars - though they should be possible. Maybe that's a euro perspective, but the "promised land" fiction is still very much a trope due to the migratory waves to America, the slavic east and so on. I was more thinking that every character should have a reason to go to the new world that they decide for themself. It may well be sponsorship of a faction, the desire to claim land, or just a drive to explore. Or business opportunity.
The astral war should be similarly an undertone with clear opt-ins. All of those make for choice categories. Still think the choice of whether you went through angel/demon world should give it a slight tint though. Some light tribalism is good, see facility's Leave/Stay dichotomy. Even softer in ths though.
88580888 (You)
Yep, so we're in agreement so far. Portal Fantasy with lots of races, the human realm is a cluster of worlds, and many of said worlds have been emptied out and need exploration. Sounds good... Should I go grab my left over notes for the setting I had going?
ANONS NOTES
88581016 (You)
Okay maybe I stole a look and it's already quite evocative with what we discussed. Thinking void mages can open their own portals to the home world for example. Faith can be devoted to Gods, Demons (heresy, bth of them!) or the old gods of humanity. Which would be anons. And probably quite badly beaten up by G&D
88581076 (You)
One of the things I had in mind back then, was that the heavily faith based races (Divine and Undead) are from the world of Gods. Their soldiers were left over after the war, spreading and becoming natives. Same with with the magic heavy races (Demons and Dragons).
Meanwhile, the Human Races and Beast Races are true natives, and the Fey and Monster Races are aberrations that arose after the Human Realm started to assimilate the other two worlds.
So, some notes on what I was thinking about secret OC.
First is a counterproposal for the use of Indian names for Demons and Gods, or rather a change. Instead of purely Indian, I think it'd be cool if each world had different naming schemes. So maybe the Gods have Indian names, but the Demons have names from the Ars Goetia. Since Humans have a cluster world, they might have a mish-mash of all the remaining religions... Or, instead of mythological names, they could have names for all the great thinkers in human history, from Plato to Newton. The main reason for this is to give each faction a different cultural identity to draw from to help make them distinct. Having different worlds draw from different cultures is one of the joys of portal fantasy after all.
Second is something I remembered about the 3 systems and why Humanity was so strong.
The Demon system of evolution is all about consumption- eat and grow. It let's demons grow quickly, but the trade off is mass casualties for every demon.
The God system of classes is all about requirements- it's about overcoming trials and following the footsteps of your predecessors. It doesn't have massive casualties like the demons, but it's not nearly as fast either
The Human system of skills is all about knowledge- the core is just learn and improve. That's why the method of improving skills is fusing them together- master two topics and move on to study the relationship between them, creating a more complex topic to study. Not only does it not need mass casualties, it's very fast too because the more skilled users can teach their knowledge to students. (This is also why it makes sense for their top figures to be great thinkers) Of course, with humanity having fallen, their knowledge is mostly lost, and the terror of skills is largely lost as a result.
88587908
Names
Primary idea with stealing them from Hinduism was the opposition of lower and higher realms via Devas/Devi for gods (m/f) and an according opposite akin to the demons residing in the underworld/Patala (Yakshas probably. Opens up an avenue via Rakshasa as demonic "avatars" too while demigods can be Devas "avatars" and actual Avatars are the equivalent relatd to thenear-extinct ancient humans)
For naming conventions we can use entirely different references. Very fond of the Ars Goetia so let's take that. Humans being based - on greek or great thinkers in general vibes well with me too. As we have a main world, we can tint the other worlds that were fully/partially wiped with a different human canon too.
So Gods are a symbol for civilization and institutional development with little concern for the individual while demons are more animalistic and a symbol for darwinist Evolution/"nature"? I'd like that because they are both easily written as an integral part of creation yet not human at the extremes. Personally think the distinctly human part of that triangle is lacking. Them being able to adapt to both currents is a great start and justifies why they can be on even footing with the other 2 (in the grand scheme of things. Still underdogs)
88588428 (You)
Alright then. Sounds like for most of my proposals/notes we're on the same page. Maybe just refine the human system. If there's a cultural lesson to attribute for the human side, I guess it's mutual aid? The reason the human system was strong was because the old humans shared their knowledge freely, and anyone could be a teacher regardless of status or past accomplishments. Because of that, their system snowballed really fast. On the other hand, maybe the new wave of humanity is hoarding knowledge like greedy dragons hoarding gold, thinking it's only precious when it's a secret no one else knows. As a result, the skill system starts to seem like a huge underdog instead. So it's a system that's only as powerful as it's users are willing to band together- which to me is very 'human'.
Past that, you got any ideas to add to the pot yourself? (Or any other anons in on this project?)
Anyone need clarifications from my super messy notes from last time?
88588607
Sounds good to me. So we got Demons, who evolve with an emphasis on getting ahead and strong individuals. Their aspect in creation is Evolution.
Gods, emphasis on control and the collective. Their aspect is Roles.
Humans, emphasis on (genuine) cooperation somewhere between the individual and the collective. The part that's important is emergence. More than the parts, without becoming a single entity like the Gods aspire to. Their aspect is Cooperation.
That way, an extreme of either is only possible at the cost of another.
As for the pot: how do we get more races in! What we have so far is Gods, Demons, Ancient Humans, Humans. Maybe an imperfect descendant to G&D to mirror humans. Giving us lesser Demons/Rakshasa and lesser Gods/(blank for now). I say those are equally as corruptible as humans are, giving us a spectrum of origins and extremes in the aspects. I see you have a trias of vampires too. I say those are "fallen" humans, corrupted by a Fourth aspect as of yet undefined (and maybe left obscure?). That gives us the mirrors for Gods and Demons too. Vampires are a perversion of the Aspect of Cooperation: false cooperation. So I say the "fallen" Demons should be about false Domination/Power/Evolution/Individu
As we already spoke about a system of avatars, how about a separate layer for that. The player designs a Soul which can be of human/demon/god origin and then a body which can be an entirely different thing including the "fallen" options.
I had in mind 9 worlds for the human cluster. One of them is the origin. Additionally there is the 2 WORLDS which may be a different thing entirely as they are equivalent to the human 9 each. Humans having multiple while demons and gods have a singular goes well with the cooperation bit. The demon world should be a massive creature.
88588812 (You)
Hmm, but thematically fallen gods should be the ones with Fey no? In some origins faeries are angels that got locked out of heaven but weren't banished to hell, and they're a lot close to the Gods' collective focus, fae are often all about promises, strange laws, huge and complex court dynamics, they're not that close to individual strength.
88588729
Anyway, 'Stealth' is probably a bad term. I started out with the idea of Warrior / Mage / Cleric / Rogue, but I later moved rogue elsewhere. Kind of got grandfathered in and I didn't change it. Mainly the idea is that the 'Stealth' category implies more indirect methods. Like a blacksmith doesn't kill people, but his swords do. that's why it's got a lot of crafters, and why the hybrid Stealth classes favor indirect approaches like assassination or beast taming, or are just crafters with a more fantastical spin on it. It really needs a different name than 'Stealth'.
Magic vs Faith is about Internal vs External. Mages rely on their own power but Clerics invoke the power of others. Incidentally, there's also the weirdo Fey magic you get that mixes the two, which relies on the power of nature and the world around you. I'm sure there's some overlap and things could be done better, but that was the goal.
Also, Magic responds well to understanding something like a science- studying how it works as a system. Faith responds better to understanding something like history- more a matter of route memorization and understanding the underlying meaning. Fey (witchcraft? how do we fell about calling it witchcraft?) relies more on emotions and symbolism.
88588812 (You)
I like what you're doing with the vampires. My original idea was that the Undead originated from the God's world the same way Dragons came from the Demon's world, but due to how the Undead function (killing things and raising them as undead) it'd make sense for them to be fallen humans. Uhh... Anyway, I'm running out of character limit. I'll continue in my next reply.
88588984
I'll continue in my next reply.
Hah, and I will ninja this in because you gave me an idea. Dragons originating in the demon world is cool. How about a magic beast for all of the 3 domains too. You gave dragons, I raise Hounds for humans. Name up for suggestions, but the idea is that it's basically a dog's fabled qualities like loyalty and self-sacrifice and dutifulness and apply it to a soul. Then, slip that soul into whatever local creature of the World in question (they are entities too, remember?) works best to fill that role. A fated companion race.
88588969 (You)
Also, what canon are Fey even drawn from other than folk tales?
Hmm, they are inspired by the aos si/sidhe from Celtic mythology, in particular the Tuatha De Dannan which is also where that "fallen angels that aren't fully good nor evil" idea comes from as that did happen in medieval texts, so that would be your answer i believe. So i think the faeries should fit pretty nicely as the fallen equivalent for the gods, they're also a bit more distant from the gods' focus on society, because even if they do have huge complex courts and stuff, there's that focus on gaining power via promises and outsmarting/outmaneuvering with their silly laws.
88589155
Celtic mythology is something I have completely slept on until now. Apart from indirect influences ie Arthurian "canon".
Shifting the Fey (can be multiple kinds) to gods makes perfect sense though, I see it now. How'd we get faux strength for the demons then?
88588812 (You)
Anyway, on my schizo notes, did you notice how there were headers 'Divine' "Demon' etc? Things like Valkyries and Goblins are the weak members of the God and Demon races on par with new humans. I'll also say that the Demon King and God options were somewhat intended to be 'false' from the start- in a roundabout way. My idea was that Gods and Demons are so powerful because they can directly interact with the will of their world. But, we wouldn't have that option, so even if we become Gods or Demon Kings, our power won't compare to the real ones, at least not just by picking that option.
Also, for trias, Angel Archangel God was the idea for Divines, Lesser Demon Greater Demon Demon King for demons, and the fey are just oddballs, honestly.
OK, for the inner soul thing, I actually just remembered something relevant. I originally planned to start the CYOA out with a pick 1 system to excel at, you get a discount for it. Last night, I was thinking we could use that as a 'what realm is your soul from'? If you excel at evolution for example, your soul would be that of a demon regardless of what race you pick.
88588944
I didn't know that, but it actually fits pretty well. Fey are supposed to be a mix of God and Demon.
88589041 (You)
Funny thing about humans having dogs. I said this sometime before, but the Beast Races are natives to the human realm just like humanity. Humans & Beasts were Human Realm, Gods & Undead were God Realm, Demons & Dragons were Demon realm. Fey & Monsters are weirdos that popped up when those 3 worlds started to mix together.
Astral war wiped out humanities spiritual potential (they need intermediaries/old gods now which are hunted by angel/demon cults) and left many worlds depopulated or tainted by the demonc/godly influence
88589208
Kinda would like an additional slot below Rakshasa/Humans/not!Angels but that'd probably invite trouble.
Inner soul is nice because it allows for a lore-exposing early section which is just great for presentation.
Beast people being tied to the worlds is something to pick up. The worlds having their own system for races may be something for the next thread.
The distinction between dogs (canines) and hounds (loyal companions) works well with that too.
88589254
I am glad. Bouncing back and forth like this in almost real time is quite satisfying.
88589257
I am glad. Thanks for making a cool character. Tragic backstory fits the bill for that friendship too.