Mandy Murders Report 2025
Updated Mandy Murders research report -- cross-reference with Discord messages for MySpace / YouTube screenshots and citation links
Abstract:In Escape the Fate / Falling In Reverse fandom folklore, there exists a popular notion that Suicide Girls model Mandy Murders was the subject of a replacement and/or revenge scheme by Craig Mabbitt shortly after his replacing Ronnie Radke as Escape the Fate's lead vocalist. In this story, which has survived in fan spaces since 2008 and seems to have originated with Ronnie on MySpace, Ronnie had previously been in a romantic or sexual relationship with Mandy, and Craig "stole" her in an effort to emulate Ronnie and push him out of his position after Radke's imprisonment. However, analysis of contemporary sources suggests that this story has little to no basis in reality. The authors theorize that its origins stem with either Ronnie misremembering a professional relationship or as fabricated propaganda against Craig with no basis in reality, possibly taking advantage of fans assuming Radke and Ms. Murders had dated due to a lack of other information. Based on available contemporary sources and attestation from Craig in 2024, Murders' relationship with the band was most likely a professional modeling job including public appearances and photography rather than a romantic relationship with any members thereof.
Mandy Murders (stage name, her given name is unknown and also none of my business) is generally agreed to have been the cover model for Dying Is Your Latest Fashion, and presumably the model for its internal liner notes. We don't know for sure, since she isn't credited, but Escape the Fate sources talk about her (although not much, we'll discuss this shortly), she worked as a Suicide Girls model at the time of the album's production, and is credited as being cast for the Not Good Enough For Truth In Cliche music video. According to Craig Mabbitt (Escape the Fate since 2008, Dead Rabbitts, formerly Blessthefall and The Word Alive), she's happily married to one of his friends as of 2024.
This probably isn't why you've heard her name. Rather, she's one of the main names that gets thrown about when Team Ronnie / Team Craig debates resurface every so often. Allegedly (in that the only source is Ronnie, in I Can Explain ch. 6 and a MySpace post which I couldn't find on his archived MySpace, so only survives in screenshots and quoted in an Alternative Press article from 2014), Ms. Murders dated both Ronnie and Craig. This was, at least if you ask Ronnie, some sort of Single White Female replacement and revenge scheme on Craig's part. Anyone who's listened to Fashionably Late in full should know not to trust Ronnie as a citation for anything about a woman, but for whatever reason, this anecdote has stuck around, and Craig has been getting bullied by Ronnie fans over it since 2008.
The problem is that it's almost certainly false, based on both all the available contemporary sources we have and (new after December 2024!) my asking Mr. Mabbitt about it directly. This research report will describe what's known about Mandy Murders in all contemporary Escape the Fate sources I could find, and analyzing them, explain why the story of "Craig fucking Ronnie's ex-girlfriend to try to be like him" didn't happen.
Section 1: Dated Both Ronnie and Craig
Did she date Ronnie? Probably not. The timeline doesn't allow for it.
There aren't many sources about Escape the Fate during this era. Before Ronnie's delaying his court case for 2 years, not even pretending to try to abide by the terms of his probation, and then refusing to go to prison quietly, and blaming Escape the Fate for it, they were a strictly local phenomenon and the most interesting thing they did was the MCR radio contest in 2005. Prior to 2008, no journalism that's actually about Escape the Fate as a band (a few Las Vegas papers mention the fight Ronnie started but couldn't finish in 2006) could be found, outside of Epitaph's own website. Even so, "reputable" (I say this in quotes because scene journalism is terrible) journalists don't care who Ronnie was dating, so there aren't good sources. I'm saying this to preface that maybe there are better sources that I just couldn't find.
The sum total of any connection between Ronnie and Mandy Murders that still exists to be found as of 2024-25 is him complaining about Craig allegedly "fucking his ex-girlfriend", the DIYLF album cover / NGE4TIC videos, and one picture of them snogging at a party.
That is literally it. Ronnie's archived MySpace page does not mention Mandy Murders at all during the period they were allegedly dating. Mandy's Suicide Girls profile page and other findable sources don't mention Ronnie, Craig, or Escape the Fate at any point during the relevant timeframe. Furthermore, according to the few sources from her we have, Ms. Murders is British and didn't live in the US for an extended period, making the odds of romantic engagement with either Ronnie or Craig much lower.
If you ask creepy unsourced celebrity websites, infographics, and TikToks, Mandy and Ronnie dated from 2004 to 2007. However, this doesn't align with the timeline of Escape the Fate's career or other sources we have: Escape the Fate's MySpace was not created until November 2004. They may have existed as a band before then, but if they did, it was local to the Las Vegas area and does not survive in sources we still have. Escape the Fate is not documented as producing music in a form anyone outside of their hyperlocal area could hear until the MCR contest in 2005. Escape the Fate didn't release anything via MySpace, Epitaph's website, and/or CDs until There's No Sympathy For The Dead in 2006. If Mandy Murders' page is to be believed, she didn't live in the US for an extended period, so the odds that she could have even heard of Escape the Fate or Ronnie in 2004 are low.
The Dying Is Your Latest Fashion liner notes, in Ronnie's acknowledgments, also namedrop a different girlfriend, whose existence is corroborated by I Can Explain and interviews with Max: Whitney Long. In I Can Explain, Ronnie and Max are described as moving in with her sometime around 2004, and she's described as being annoyed that Ronnie kept wearing her jeans and hogging her computer for MySpace. The reference to MySpace suggests that she was Ronnie's girlfriend during the November 2004 timeframe for EtF's MySpace being created, and her attestation in the DIYLF liner notes without Mandy cited suggests this was maintained until whenever the album's liner notes were created. (unknown, but presumably a few months before the album's release in September 2006, but after its described recording in 2005.)
In conclusion, it's highly unlikely that Mandy Murders could have dated Ronnie during the timeframe attested by creepy unsourced celebrity websites, and the only connection to her we have is two professional bookings (and she isn't even credited for Dying Is Your Latest Fashion's cover and presumably liner notes) and a no-context picture. Those same creepy unsourced celebrity websites and FIR fan infographics generally agree that there was a different, non-Mandy girlfriend after Whitney, and Whitney takes up the timeframe claimed for Mandy of 04 to 06. It's also unlikely that she could have even met Ronnie or known he existed prior to Escape the Fate being relevant. So, there's nowhere in the timeline for her to go.
Just because a woman appears in a music video or album cover doesn't mean that any member of the band was dating her, especially if she was a model so that was literally her job.
Did she date Craig? Insufficient information, but also probably not.
I Can Explain, and literally nowhere else, claims that Mandy messaged Craig after his previous girlfriend (unnamed) broke up with him. However, Ronnie was in prison at the time, so it's unknown what his source was, and he openly admits he wasn't in his right mind. Craig also actually knows when to shut up and is capable of respecting women as people, so whom he was dating at any given point is far less relevant in the fanbase zeitgeist. Neither he nor Mandy (until I asked him), as far as I know, have ever spoken directly on anything having to do with this alleged Escape the Fate love triangle.
The evidence for Craig dating Mandy is as follows:
- The aforementioned I Can Explain passage and only-survives-as-quotes-and-screenshots MySpace post from Ronnie.
- She was at a show once and Craig said hi to her from on stage, which someone recorded and put on YouTube. This is what Alternative Press cites, along with Ronnie, in 2014, for the "Craig fucked Ronnie's ex as a revenge scheme" story. They did not speak to Mandy, Craig, or any other members of Escape the Fate.
- A couple of pictures of her with Craig exist, and are actually pretty cute.
The problem with this, other than a general lack of solid evidence (Ronnie and Craig have also been known to shout out friends they recognize from on stage, and believe it or not, guys in bands can have female friends without having sex with them), is that the pictures of her with Craig both have the appearance of band photoshoots and most relevantly, also have Max in them.
Now, I can see Ronnie bringing Max on a romantic date with his girlfriend (or possibly bringing his beard on a romantic date with Max...), but I can't really see Craig doing it. Nor does Ms. Murders look especially into it, which adds to these seemingly being staged photoshoots. (Note: I do not know the original context for any of these images. If you do, please contact me!)
We don't even have a no-context makeout picture like with Ronnie, although my question is who took that picture?
Section 2: Craig Wanted To Be Like Ronnie
There was never a mutual Ronnie / Craig feud. Ronnie sniped at Craig, and Ronnie and Craig's fans sniped at each other (although I can't find a good citation for the claims repeated by scene journalism that they actually beat each other up at concerts; if you have contemporary video or first-person accounts, send them to me!), but all the "feuding" that happened with credible citation of initiation on both sides was with Max, and much shorter-lived than AltPress would have you believe. Even I Can Explain claims that reconciliation with Escape the Fate had been made by 2012 (although Ronnie is still antagonizing Escape the Fate as recently as 2025, so...), and there stops clearly being anything coming from Escape the Fate / Max on archived platforms I can find by 2009. By the time The Drug In Me Is You came out, it seems that its targets no longer really cared. And I don't think Craig ever did that much to begin with.
The first journalistic source I know of to discuss an Escape the Fate "feud" is the fascinating and intensely homoerotic No Escape (Las Vegas Sun, 2008) interview with Max. It's where we get the phrase "we've been everything together". More relevantly, while it's talking about an internal schism with Escape the Fate / between the now-fractured EtF and Ronnie, it doesn't really bring up Craig at all. This is the main citation used by Ronnie for claiming that This War Is Ours about him, but the war that is claimed to have started is Max vs. Ronnie. Craig is just that other guy who Ronnie was replaced with.
There is exactly one surviving interview, total, where Escape the Fate talks about Ronnie. Here it is. It's honestly heartbreaking, especially with Max, because they all just sound sad and like no one wanted things to turn out like this. Max sounds like he's about to cry the whole time. It's also made even worse in hindsight by the other guys' hopes that Ronnie will improve in prison vs. just sitting there stewing in hatred and blaming everybody else...the latter of which is exactly what he did, and how we got The Drug In Me Is You. You will note that there is nothing remotely approaching "beef" here.
The most well-documented point of Escape the Fate "beef" prior to Ronnie's imprisonment is the "if I could stay clean, I could stay with my band" anecdote -- which was spoken by Max. Accounts of this story vary, but many also claim that Ronnie was heckling the band well before that point, which if true would make it both retaliatory and fairly mild, if what Ronnie says every other time he's attacked someone he perceives as wronging him (see: his entire career) is any indication.
Throughout The Drug In Me Is You and corroborated by I Can Explain, Max is who gets the bulk of Ronnie's ire. He's the one Ronnie wishes dead and says he'll have sex with his wife in lieu of attending his funeral, and he actually regrets it. The only line in The Drug In Me Is You that seems to refer to Craig is that he stole Ronnie's haircut. And even according to Ronnie, the inciting incident for Tragic Magic, which is the most blatant attack on EtF as a band as opposed to Max personally, came from Robert of all people.
"In prison, I read a magazine interview with Robert Ortiz, in which they quoted him as saying something along the
lines of, 'I'm so happy Craig doesn't sing about tragedy all the time
because that's all Ronnie used to sing about: tragedy. Craig writes
about overcoming things, about triumph.' Well, good for him, I thought." - I Can Explain ch. 9 (note: a web search for Robert's alleged quote here does not turn up anything. If you have a link to or scan of this magazine interview, please send it to me!)
"I was willing to go back to jail to defend Max again. I once wrote a
song in which I wished him dead. But I don't ever want to see Max gone
from this world. There's something special inside of him, some kind of
light, which we share. ... It's something intangible and hard to define,
but when someone has it, you just know it. Max and I can bring out the
best in each other, especially on stage, when we put in the effort
together." - I Can Explain ch. 14
"And when you die, I won't be at your wake
No eulogy from me, just a smile on my face
And while God might be busy with judging your soul
I will have slept with the girl you loved most"
- Caught Like A Fly (Falling In Reverse, 2011)
Across various ephemera, you'll also see claims that Monte and Omar were the mean ones, so we quite literally have claims that everyone in Escape the Fate was attacking Ronnie...except Craig. The incidents we do have from Craig, other than the Mandy Murders story, come several times removed, and seem to have been retaliatory.
I have been unable to find primary source recordings of any of these. If you have or can find one, please send it to me.
1: A claim that after fans had been heckling him / chanting Ronnie's name / etcetera (accounts vary), he went on a tirade which included among other things, the first notable appearance of the phrase "fuck Ronnie Radke". All accounts I remember agree that it was preceded by fans heckling him online and off. Depending on who's telling the story, the actual blame for the outburst may have been Monte hyping him up. Again, everyone in EtF might have been the mean one except Craig.
2: "You want the old lead singer? He's in jail in Nevada because he wouldn't piss in a cup." This is completely true (along with refusing to get a job because touring is "what he was made for" and not getting clean), but is again, agreed to be in response to heckling, so retaliatory.
3: Mentioned in I Can Explain, supposedly Craig at some point, when either interviewed or asked by fans (again, no primary source and accounts vary), claimed that Ronnie had been sent to solitary confinement because he was caught with drugs in prison.
According to Ronnie, he was in fact clean and had been sent to solitary either due to recording music while in prison with a band he totally started while in there (note: this story is not in any source other than I Can Explain and feels a little too Big Man On Campus to be that plausible for a scrawny, effeminate, racist white guy) or getting his "BANG BANG" knuckle tattoos which he has for some inexplicable reason not blacked out. They are the only part of his ensemble the blackout slime would actually improve. As of 2008-9, Craig would have no way of knowing this.
According to interviews with the other contemporary band members, basically no one on Epitaph / EtF's end knew what was going on with Ronnie's prison sentence, so rather than being an attack on Ronnie's character, it seems more likely to me that Craig legitimately did not know why Ronnie was in solitary, so came up with a plausible guess. Yes, it was unethical of him to claim something he couldn't prove as opposed to saying "I don't know why; I'm not in touch with him", but it pales in comparison to Ronnie's whole career and is hardly the attack Ronnie claims it is.
4: According to Ronnie, and literally no one else, This War Is Ours was a jab at him. Not only do no songs on This War Is Ours show a clear correspondence to Ronnie that couldn't be explained by breakup / revenge songs being genre-standard, the first two Guillotines are generally agreed to be about Halo (the first one from DIYLF being about Halo II is canon from MySpace) and Guillotine 3 was written for Craig's military dad, so the title track / album name almost certainly isn't. Also, even if this were the case, the only source that refers to a "war" between the EtF and Ronnie / FIR camps is No Escape, which is entirely attributable to Max.
So, the only citations we have of any antagonism of Ronnie coming from Craig are mild, agreed even by Ronnie fans to be retaliatory in response to fans' heckling, and might not even be attacks at all. Craig going straight from this to having sex with Ronnie's ex-girlfriend as a revenge scheme seems rather far-fetched and out of character for him.
But maybe Craig wasn't sleeping with Mandy out of revenge. Maybe he was trying to be like Ronnie, to usurp his proper place and convince the fans that he could follow in Ronnie's footsteps!
...slow down there, Hamlet. Yes, Dying Is Your Latest Fashion songs appear on surviving Escape the Fate setlists until the end of 2010, but the only source we have that Craig wanted to emulate Ronnie is unsurprisingly, Ronnie. If you believe him, Craig, back when he was with Blessthefall, had "always been jealous of him".
According to interviews with Craig, he left Blessthefall in 2007 to spend more time with his kids, then started shopping for new bands to join in around 2008, including founding The Word Alive. TWA eventually kicked him out because he had started touring with Escape the Fate and couldn't be in two places at once, but if Craig had "always been jealous of Ronnie and wanted to replace him", that wouldn't make much sense.
Also, according to Craig, he literally joined Escape the Fate because of a wrong number, and was one of the first people in the music industry to know that Ronnie was not coming back, which had not yet been publicly revealed. Sometime in 2008 when Craig was looking for a new job, he got a number for and tried to call someone named Joey, with a different band, to apply for a job with them. He got Escape the Fate's manager Joey by mistake, and was informed "uh, Ronnie's going to prison, we have slated shows, we need a new lead singer NOW". Now, this probably isn't the whole story since we do seem to have documentation of Craig leading shows with Escape the Fate before Ronnie was in prison, via the "if I could stay clean I could stay with my band" story, but the point is that Craig had an established career and wasn't notably smaller than EtF when he was with Blessthefall, left Btf by choice, and was shopping around for other bands before ultimately ending up with Escape the Fate. Hardly an active ambition to become Ronnie.
There's also no evidence of the interactions between Ronnie and Craig after their meeting at Warped Tour 2007 but before Ronnie's expulsion being anything but cordial. Craig liked hanging out with them and vice versa, but there's no real sign of jealousy or malice in any part of it. Now, Craig's forced Ronnie-ization aesthetically speaking did happen, but even he seems to have been rather uncomfortable with it, or at least confused...now, this is from I Can Explain, so is filtered through Ronnie (and Craig is silent on some dubious at best claims about him in the same book / chapter), but Craig had also fully abandoned any Ronnie-esque aesthetic or musical elements by the self-titled album in 2010.
"It was the same people. They even set up the photo the same way? I asked, 'Isn't this the same thing?' We had a photographer behind the bar sucking cigarettes down to blow the smoke in the air to make it look fucking smoky." - I Can Explain, ch. 7
Also, Ronnie's citation that Craig was trying to steal his haircut and persona was that...Escape the Fate had hired the same stylist for a photoshoot. Yeah, because they'd worked with the band before and Epitaph / the managers already knew them? There's no evidence that was Craig's idea, and it doesn't make much of any sense to assume that everyone who worked with Escape the Fate would leave with Ronnie. Nor is Ronnie all that different from most artists of his genre aesthetically, especially as of Dying Is Your Latest Fashion. (He claims that all those people were imitating him and he did it first. One look at AFI or The Used eliminates that notion. Ronnie seems to think that Dying Is Your Latest Fashion was the most unique, original, genre-codifying album ever. Contemporary reviews describe it as a very standard and on trend album musically and aesthetically. It's a damned good one, but Ronnie has never been a trailblazer in his life. And DIYLF is, like, 90% of my gender presentation so I'm hardly a critic of its aesthetics.)
Takeaways from Escape the Fate Sources
- There's no convincing evidence that Mandy dated Ronnie and/or Craig. What interactions we have seem to either be professional bookings / photoshoots or have no context. Ronnie, at least, there's very compelling evidence that she probably wasn't his girlfriend during the timeframe celebrity sites claim she was, because Whitney occupies that timeframe in all sources from him and the timeline doesn't make sense with EtF's career.
- All of the Escape the Fate "feuding" with initiation on Escape the Fate's side that we know of came from people other than Craig, Max being the only one clearly documented. What antagonism of Ronnie exists from Craig at all seems to have been strictly retaliatory in response to fans heckling him, and pretty mild in comparison to the personal attacks Ronnie was dishing out.
- There's no evidence that Craig was especially attached to Escape the Fate specifically, to the point of being jealous of or wanting to be / replace Ronnie, seeing as he actively tried to rejoin Blessthefall, start a new band, and get jobs with other bands before ending up with them by (if you believe him) accident.
- Mandy is not mentioned on any sources I could find from Ronnie, Craig, or Escape the Fate between 2006 and 2010, nor does she mention any of them. There's one surviving band interview, total, with Escape the Fate that mentions Ronnie which I could find (I Can Explain cites others. If you can find them, send them to me.), and no video interviews or journalism I could find from the relevant time period mentions Mandy at all. While she may not have been mentioned if she simply dated Ronnie and/or Craig, if it was an effort to set Ronnie off (as Ronnie claims), you would think Craig would mention it somewhere, but he never did.
Conclusion from Escape the Fate Sources
Mandy Murders was Escape the Fate's girlfriend.
Not in a polyamory sense. I don't think Craig is into that (even his slimiest incarnations seem both monogamous and pretty vanilla), Max was too busy either with or pining over Ronnie, and Ronnie...doesn't like women. Both in the sense that he hates them and in the sense that he doesn't seem attracted to them, and seems to find sex as a whole gross and off-putting. Honestly, the only people in this situationship who have any clear evidence of being romantically into each other are Ronnie and Max, but that's a story for June 2024.
Rather, we need to remember that Ms. Murders was a Suicide Girls model. Giving male emo guys some heterosexual eye candy, and hanging out with scenemo bands to do so, was literally her job.
Everything she does with Escape the Fate aligns with this -- she appeared on an album cover (probably) and music video, appears in some staged photos with Craig and Max, and occasionally attended shows and yes, maybe made out with Ronnie and/or Craig. I can't prove this, but it aligns with her job, how Ronnie at least had a different documented girlfriend, what we know she did with Escape the Fate, and her lack of mention on social media -- if Escape the Fate was one of many gigs she did as part of her job, there'd be no reason for her to call Ronnie or Craig her boyfriend or shout them out on social media. Nor would there be any reason for Ronnie or Craig to namedrop her, since she'd be the same kind of hired band-adjacent personnel as the unnamed stylist who dressed Craig up to look like Ronnie that one time.
I don't know this for sure, but it's the best explanation from the sources we have. She was seen with both Ronnie and Craig because she had a professional involvement with Escape the Fate, and at least with Craig, it seems that she enjoyed hanging out with the guys. There's no reason to extrapolate a romantic or sexual relationship from that.
Now, the label trying to make an effort to make Craig look and sound like Ronnie, and using Mandy as part of that, can't be ruled out. But at least with what we have from Craig, he had no interest in trying to be Ronnie, and honestly seems a little uncomfortable, confused, and maybe annoyed by the whole thing. (Which is exactly how you'd expect a straight guy from a Christian band who unwillingly became a vertex of a love triangle after taking a job opening from a wrong number to react. Whether that love triangle is with Mandy or Max will be left as an exercise for the reader, but listen to The Drug In Me Is You and/or The Departure [FIR demo] if you need a hint.)
The question, of course, is that if Mandy was a solely professional contact and her involvement with Escape the Fate was within a plausible range of behavior for her job as a scene model, why would Ronnie claim that she was his ex-girlfriend and Craig was dating her to attack him?
Pick any Ronnie social media post and/or song where he's talking about a woman, and/or someone he thinks has wronged him. The man loves claiming personal connections where they either don't exist or seem to have been business relationships at best.
Or, somewhat more charitably, Whitney wasn't very visible, and would be easy to miss save the line in the DIYLF liner notes. Escape the Fate's fans may very well have assumed that Ronnie and Mandy were dating, simply because she was the most visible woman in his life. Either Ronnie wasn't in his right mind (in I Can Explain, he admits that he was so high he doesn't really remember Warped Tour 2007, so may have been in a similar mindset during Not Good Enough For Truth In Cliche's video filming. The video released on YouTube in January 2007; its production date is unknown.) and legitimately couldn't remember what his relationship with Mandy was, so he took the fans' word for it, or he realized that the fans believing Mandy was his girlfriend (even if she wasn't) would be useful to use to attack Craig, so he went with it. Neither of these would be out of character for his better-documented beefs in the 2010s and 20s.
In conclusion, we don't have sufficient evidence to say that Mandy Murders ever dated either Ronnie or Craig. We won't until and unless Ms. Murders herself attests a relationship. However, the sources we do have show no mention of Mandy Murders in any Escape the Fate sources from the period other than professional photoshoots and no documented "beef" initiated by Craig. From these sources, it can be concluded that Ronnie's claim, repeated by I Can Explain, Alternative Press, and countless fans over the past 18 years, that Craig "slept with his ex-girlfriend because he wanted to be like / get revenge on him" is false. Craig Mabbitt did nothing wrong. Taking a job opening is not a personal attack on the position's previous holder. Even if he and Mandy Murders did date, it had nothing to do with Ronnie, and what a consenting adult couple do is no one's business but their own.
And If That Wasn't Enough, I Asked Craig Myself
In December 2024, I got the opportunity to ask Craig about Mandy Murders directly at their concert Q&A in Tucson, Arizona. It was excellent and informative all around; a post about my experience with the show and VIP pass will be coming soon. Here's the response I got when asking about Mandy Murders. I'm impressed at how informative it was; I was frankly almost expecting the reaction to be "Who?". But I guess that Falling In Reverse fans bullying him over this for the past 18 years has kept it fresh.
(Paraphrased from my notes) "We hung out for a couple months, maybe weeks, during This War Is Ours' production. I'm not really sure if it counts as dating?"
I asked a follow-up question about if anybody knew anything about whether Murders and Ronnie had dated, but the only citations Robert brought up were the album cover and NGE4TIC music video, which as discussed would be within the purview of Mandy's professional duties as a Suicide Girls model.
The assertion from Craig himself that whatever relationship he had with Mandy was tied to This War Is Ours' album production, and lasted at most "a couple months", strongly suggests that their relationship was more professional than romantic. It would explain why she was at the one show we have video of from the AltPress article, and the origin of those photos of her, Craig, and Max hanging out.
There was never a Ronnie vs. Craig feud. Ronnie and Max were having a little lovers' quarrel, and Craig was the other woman.
I'm not the only scholar to come up with this conclusion. Here's a hilarious Windows Movie Maker video I encountered while doing research, which is made all the more hilarious by how it predates TDIMIY: https://youtu.be/tM5-pSXVT4s
Thank you to Craig for humoring me, my personal friends and mother for putting up with me rambling about this, and junerezi @ Discord for spending 7 straight hours with me in early 2024 going through archived MySpace pages, awful celebrity websites, and every EtF interview we could find.