Don't Buy StepManiaX
A story about a company that despises its customers
tl;dr
My entire experience of buying and owning a StepManiaX (SMX) pad has been a neverending nightmare
A brief prologue:
I bought an L-TEK and got back into dance gaming after a 15-year hiatus in 2022. About a year and a half later, I snapped one of the metal connectors between the contact plates while cleaning. I fixed it first with copper tape, then by welding, but it continued to come loose. My panels had started cracking and the screws no longer stayed tightly seated. I figured it was time for an upgrade, and at just the perfect time I saw a craigslist post from a local dance gamer who had begun building their own pads.
I bought one of the first Barkus pads ever produced. I spent the next three months or so alternating between a state of awe at the contact panel to FSR upgrade and misery due to long nights debugging custom Arduino code and fixing electrical issues. I patiently tinkered, because the manufacturer was just a guy in his garage, and I knew I was a glorified beta tester. We sent lengthy e-mails and code snippets back and forth and I even beta tested Barkus v2 and v3.
During this period, I was jealous of players who owned StepManiaX stages. When I first bought my L-TEK, I had added my name to the mailing list for SMX stage drops, but they seemed to only happen every couple of years. I felt like I probably would never be able to snag one as they always sold out in mere seconds due to insane demand, and I wasn't sure if there would even be another drop (to my knowledge there still has not been).
I asked in the SMX Discord on 4/21/2023 if there was any way to know where there would be a new drop (answer: no) and on 9/14/2023 if they'd ever go on sale again. At this point, JBean, a moderator for the Discord, told me an open secret: if you send an e-mail directly to the SMX team, they will sell you a bundle - two SMX stages and a dedicated SMX monitor. Even though both of those products are continually listed as out of stock on their website, they are actually very much in stock, as long as you're willing to spring for the entire package.
As an ITG main, I planned on mostly using the pads for 4-panel play and wasn't terribly interested in 5-panel. In addition, I had recently purchased a 42” 4k gaming monitor, and felt upset about being forced to spend almost two-thousand dollars on a monitor I didn't plan to use solely to be able to have the opportunity to purchase the pads.
The Purchase
As problems with my Barkus pads accumulated and I was spending more time with the pad guts spread across my garage than actually playing, I dreamed of owning a true end-game dance game setup, something built like a tank, meant to withstand arcade abuse, and most importantly, built by professionals - something that would work. Despite not wanting the monitor, I was desperate for a working pad, and inquired by sending an e-mail directly to Step Revolution support.
RootReducer 2/7/2023
I am interested in buying two StepmaniaX stages. I heard from Discord the only way to currently do this is to buy some sort of bundle. I already have a mounted monitor and speaker setup - I do not necessarily need either of those, so I'd be interested in the most "lightweight" bundle. Please let me know pricing and details
Kyle Ward responded almost immediately. He quoted me for the following:
We are able to place reservations on machines or touch monitor/stage bundles and no payment is required until we have the inventory available and prepared to ship. The remaining standalone stages are only available via shop.steprevolution.com when we have left over inventory that hasn't been allocated to orders. Demand continues to be very high for the machines and touch monitor bundles; this is why we haven't had extra standalone stages to offer recently.
- Two pads: $1,880 each
- Monitor: $1,850
- Shipping: $568
- Tax: $623.98
For a grand total of $6,801.98
The price tag blew me away. The stages were more expensive than I had expected, and the grand total was shocking. Also, Kyle's logic for why they couldn't sell standalone stages didn't feel sound to me. I was hoping there might be a simple two-stage bundle, but it seemed the only way to acquire the pads was to also buy the monitor (which ships separately and not part of a "bundle" anyway, this was not an all-in-one dedicab).
I thought long and hard about taking the plunge and after some long talks with my wife, knowing how good it would feel to invest in my favorite hobby and my health, and have working pads that I didn't need to worry about, I paid the invoice and went to sleep with a big smile on my face, excited to have purchased my first real arcade dance game stages.
RootReducer 2/9 12:34PM
After years of L-tek and custom FSR pad issues, I'm really really looking forward to this. Thanks for everything you've done for the dance game community!
Kyle 2/9 12:51PM
Thank you so much for your kind words and I'm confident that you're going to enjoy everything and have a great experience.
Unfortunately, that confidence turned out to be misplaced.
The First Customer Experience Snafu
That very evening, I was relaxing by watching dance games on Twitch and talking to my friend Koffee about my exciting new purchase. He stepped off the pad and over to his computer, and a few seconds later said “Root, you won't believe this - the pads are in stock!”
I thought he was messing with me, but I pulled up the website, and sure enough, for the first time I had ever seen, the red “SOLD OUT” banner was absent. In a mad scramble, I mashed the Add to Cart button, confirmed, and checked out an order of two stages, planning to cancel the order I had just placed that morning.
I got the order confirmation at 8:25PM and sent Kyle an e-mail:
RootReducer 2/9 8:26PM
I just placed an order - #4476. Please cancel and refund the original order for the 2 pads and monitor bundle. Thank you!
Kyle 2/9 8:32PM
Everything is already shipping to you from the previous order and setup today. The listing in our store just now was actually a mistake and not in inventory.
I've cancelled order #4476 since there aren't additional stages available.
I was bummed that this was a mistake, but my original order still was fine and I was getting the pads I had been dreaming about, so I swallowed the bitter $2,000 medicine and decided to move on, even though this made no sense to me. I didn't want "additional" stages - I just wanted the ones I ordered, without the monitor.
The kicker? Koffee initially thought his order would be canceled like mine, but his order did go through and he was able to buy a stage without buying a monitor.
Koffee 2/9 8:40 PM
are you still getting a pad
RootReducer 2/9 8:40 PM
yes
since I ordered the bundleI couldn't get the ones I just ordered though
already got an e-mail it was a mistake
did you get an e-mail about it?
Koffee 2/9 8:41 PM
Lol, no emails other than credit card making sure its not fraud
Koffee 2/10 3:24 PM
Looks like im getting that smx pad
So there were pads (at least one anyway!) available and Kyle lied to me. He knew I didn't want the monitor and could have honored my order for the two pads, but we both knew I was willing to pony up out of desperation. This entire experience left a sour taste in my mouth, but it was just the tip of the horrible customer experience iceberg.
Congrats to KoffeeWow for somehow sneaking in and getting his order honored though!
The Delivery and Initial Sensitivity Issues
I received my stages on 2/14 and unboxed them in the afternoon on stream. I hopped on the pads and almost immediately felt something was wrong. I was getting misses on easy songs that I normally could full combo without much effort, and it felt like I needed to use an extreme amount of force to trigger the panels. I posted in the SMX Discord general channel:
RootReducer 9:23 PM
I got my pads today and both of the up arrows are extremely undersensitve - I can barely trigger them and need to stomp extremely hard
Lightning (SMX Developer) 9:57 PM
Any chance you could get a video or footage of this? That sounds odd, especially considering you're saying it's both
RootReducer 9:58 PM
Sure thing, I can make a thread in the advice forum with videos tomorrow 🙂
On 2/15 I had my first full set on the new pads, and the sensitivity issue felt extreme enough that I made a thread in the community-questions-and-support forum on the SMX Discord.
In the OP, I posted a clip where I showed how difficult it was to trigger the sensor.
Multiple friendly and kind community members and moderators helped me debug, and I was advised to send an e-mail to Step Revolution support.
RootReducer 2/15
I received two SMX stages yesterday and they are both extremely undersensitive (all four panels) to the point of not being playable. I posted in the Advice/Support channel on Discord and there's a good discussion but no clear step forward - I figured I'd try here to see what the next steps might be.
Kyle 2/16
Thanks for contacting our support and sorry to hear that you aren't satisfied with the sensitivity of the stages.
Can you provide me with a few videos of you pressing the stage and playing under typical circumstances for you? I'd like to get a better diagnosis of it since you consider it very substantial.Do know that there is a break in period where the rubber and foam will compress, so it's typically more substantial in the first 2 weeks of use and will squish further after typical use. Our QA people give it a basic test from their procedures but this doesn't include heavy use since we leave that to the users. We are typically very conservative with initial pressure on the stage since over sensitivity can create more problems in comparison and the stages are designed for public use out of the box in comparison to minimal playstyles.
Outside of this, you can easily add a layer (or 2) of painters tape / packing tape / gaff tape underneath the sensor to create a "shim" to push the sensor upwards to expedite the break in period. You can typically adjust this to taste as long as the sensors aren't receiving resting pressure in the non press state. You might find it needs to be removed later or you may prefer to keep it. This is typically a personal "to taste" type of thing, but this would be my best advice.
I look forward to receiving your video and understanding more about your experience but this simple suggestion will definitely improve things for you if desired.>
Root 2/16
Hi Kyle,
Thanks for the quick response. Here's a short Twitch clip of just how hard I needed to press to get the sensor to trigger: https://clips.twitch.tv/RefinedDirtyClipzSpicyBoy-BUcThV4zL9YiM8q2
This evening I followed your advice and added a few layers of tape under the sensors and that helped tremendously. I understand what you mean about being conservative with sensitivity, but I still can't help feeling in this initial state it's pretty extreme - I legitimately thought something in my pads must have been broken.
It looks like I'm good to go with the tape for now and I hope as I break the pads in, I can get them even more to my liking.
Then, I followed up in the Discord thread since multiple community members were curious about the official response:
RootReducer — 02/16/2024 7:49 PM
I got an e-mail from Kyle. In short, the pads are purposefully undersensitive out of the factory and he recommended tape modding it until it's broken in. So I did!
Initial tests are positive, I can now press the panels with normal pressure
I'll have to dial in the amount of tape over time, most likely, but this is a good start
I'm still a little frustrated that this was necessary at all, but I'm glad it was at least easy
Soon after, Lightning responded, and I noticed a tint of defensiveness:
Lightning — 02/16/2024 8:19 PM
Having stages ship in a state where barely tapping on a panel would provide so many issues for shipped stages, let alone anyone playing with a standard form for games like this.
Stages are known to have a break-in period, as mentioned multiple times in here. From your videos it looks like you are barely tapping on the panel and are just clacking your foot on the top.
Glad that you have found a solution by applying some of the tape modifications for your own use, but be wary of your sensitivity being too sensitive. You WILL start seeing issues if you are trying to have it respond like that, and we can't particularly help in a situation like that.
It's great that you are able to apply it to work in a situation or form that you want, but expecting that stock on a mass manufactured controller meant for actual use is fairly unrealistic, I apologize. Also FSRs work vastly different than older sensor tech, so lots fo adapt to and learn with that too.
This was the first instance of a member of the SMX team downplaying my experience and defending the product.
RootReducer — 02/17/2024 5:36 AM
@Lightning I appreciate your reply and advice. (This goes to everyone who has helped me in this thread!)
I don't quite agree with your assessment. First, maybe it's hard to tell from the clip, but I am not "barely tapping" - I am hitting the panel HARD and when I finally get it to trigger, I am stomping with nearly my full possibly force. The main issue, from my perspective, is the raw value stays at 0 for soft, medium, and hard taps, then shoots up to 200 for a forceful stomp. I am not able to hit the panel in anyway to trigger a value or 100, or 150, or 180, for example.
I understand the stages are built to be undersensitive for arcade use and need a break-in period. But SMX software has sensitivity settings! However, these settings are initially useless since it's nearly impossible to trigger the FSRs with any value below 200, meaning that Low, Medium, and High are all effectively Low.
There's currently chatter in general about this exact issue, so I know it's not just me. I can't imagine new casual players will be thrilled when they try the game for the first time and literally cannot trigger the panels! I am not a hardware expert (obviously) but I wonder if there are some compromises that could be made so that at least setting the sensitivity to High out of the box has some effect. If not, there should at least be something in the user manual about the breakin period and how long it is expected to last. I genuinely thought my stages were defective, as evidenced by this thread.
Also, regarding your point about tape mods and "we can't particularly help" if I use them - this solution was recommended directly by Kyle. I feel like I'm getting mixed messages here.
Support e-mail says:
Outside of this, you can easily add a layer (or 2) of painters tape / packing tape / gaff tape underneath the sensor to create a "shim" to push the sensor upwards to expedite the break in period. You can typically adjust this to taste as long as the sensors aren't receiving resting pressure in the non press state. You might find it needs to be removed later or you may prefer to keep it. This is typically a personal "to taste" type of thing, but this would be my best advice.
At any rate, I seem to have found a satisfying solution for now. I appreciate all the advice and look forward to adapting to the pads and setting some new records!
Lightning — 02/17/2024 10:44 AM
I apologize, what I meant was if you are applying modifications to make things hypersensitive and you find things are too sensitive and you reach out to support, the first thing that people are going to tell you to do is remove the modifications.
I know that sounds it that should be an obvious thing, but you'd be surprised with some things that we deal with
FSR tech is significantly different than traditional sensors, and it definitely involves some different thinking and solutions.
I found the reply very reasonable and friendly, and I was very happy to have my issue solved easily.
However, Lightning saying "That sounds odd" when I said I have sensitivity issues out of the box felt very strange when a search on the SMX Discord shows a plethora of players having the same issue.
müsliwi — 02/28/2024 6:02 AM
Just read all of the thread, because I received my stages yesterday and all panels were undersensitive. „Happy“ to hear it's not just my problem. Tape mod fixed it. Thank you all
Jacqueline — 10/09/2024 9:37 PM
but at Round 1 I played on a DX cab and it was... bad, like undersensitive/making me miss randomly i feel, and I tried all 3 sensitivity setting on the cab
dynax — 10/08/2024 10:33 AM
It's doable on player two side but player 1 it is difficult to press even on high
This is also coming from someone that likes to stomp semi-ish hard
irobeth— 10/02/2024 7:52 AM
but either way, on the new gen5 PCB holder I'm having that sensitivity issue and need to tape mod I think
~~Joewhitt — 03/31/2024 1:26 PM
> I played on it within a few days of the location opening, let one of the techs know about the pad under-sensitivity issues (he seemed really interested in talking to me about the game too) and it just never got fixed
10/31 edit: The above was in reference to PiU cabs, not SMX - I misread the context, striking this out.
werdwerdus {no shirt} — 03/31/2024 12:26 PM
sadly this cab is still in pretty awful condition 😢 all panels are terribly under sensitive even on high setting
Arbel — 03/27/2024 12:07 PM
are the corners of the panels for new pads supposed to be dead zones until broken in? Just wondering if I need to debug an issue or its completely normal to have to apply a ton of pressure for it to register even on the highest sensitivity setting
iamchris4life — 02/25/2024 4:04 PM
I don't think it's fair to assume everyone experiencing this problem is just doing stamina dishwashing form or something. I step with a fair amount of force in my steps, and I experience issues with playing on normal sensitivity
nsm — 02/16/2024 8:41 PM
Yeah i don't know what's going on with the Round 1 cab i played, had sensitivity problems even on high (especially p1 up panel when it can drop on me). Even watched a random player on normal and they had dropped holds despite hitting it on time
LikeableLime - 12/11/2023 9:19 PM
Hello, I work at an arcade and we recently replaced our P1 stage. The regulars are saying that the game is dropping holds only on the P1 stage. I tried changing the sensitivity to High thinking that they aren't applying enough pressure throughout the hold but that did not resolve the issue.
This is a widespread problem that seems to be affecting all Gen 5 stages (at least the ones with the rubber corners). I am not sure why the team seems to downplay this issue. One commenter, lucdar, had an amazing idea to ship the stages with removable shims under the sensors with instructions to remove once broken in. This would be cheap and effective, but somehow the team seems to be content to tell owners of their brand new $2,000 pad to put painter's tape inside it.
But whatever, it's just a little tape. With the tape mod done, I was happy and my pad was working great. For two days.
FSR Death
On 2/19, one of my panels suddenly stopped responding to input. I opened the SMX config tool and saw the raw value had shot up from 0 to nearly the maximum value. In other words, the sensor was “stuck” thinking it had maximum pressure applied to it, which made it impossible to trigger the panel. I posted to the SMX Discord general channel:
RootReducer — 02/19/2024 11:53 AM
One of my FSRs died today - I assume this is super unusual given I have about four hours of total play time? How long are they expected to last under usual conditions?
Multiple community members advises me to e-mail support as they are supposed to last years under normal play conditions.
Root 2/19 e-mail to support
Today was my third set with my new stage and the top FSR on the down arrow died. In the calibration tool, the calibrated value is 0 but the raw value is showing the maximum. I was able to swap it with the bottom sensor to keep playing, but this seems strange.
Kyle 2/20
Can you provide a video or photo of the issue?
Please make sure all 4 sensors are always connected to the PCB since it relies on resistance values being consistent. Have you tried checking to see if the sensor activates normally with the panel removed by touching the sensor with your finger?
Also, please be aware that I'm currently traveling to Dubai for our StepManiaX presentation at an upcoming trade show so my responses will be a bit delayed until the end of the month.
Since Kyle was traveling and I was eager to get to the source of the issue, I made another thread in the community-questions-and-support forum on 2/21, which eventually turned into the single longest thread in the forum's history.
SMX Team Gaslights me for a month
The community support thread started out great. Multiple moderators and community members helped me through an extended troubleshooting process. I measured voltages to confirm nothing suspect from the wiring and then swapped out PCBs, only to have an FSR die after a few more hours. A few days later, I took apart the electrical components, cut the zip ties and the plastic wrapping the barrel jack to check the voltage there. I then checked the voltage at the step-down converter, and all was to spec. At this point, one of the mods chimed in:
kevinturner — 02/25/2024 6:27 PM
only thing I can think of if something physical isn't killing it is that there is an electricity problem, but that it only happens in spikes so it can't be measured at any given time
At this point, I think you are going to be waiting on a response from Kyle. I'm a little lost as to what could be happening here, and all of my ideas (if this were a personal stage) would just involve randomly replacing parts. I can't really tell you to do that because that costs money
I decided to wait for Kyle's response, and finally got an e-mail from him on 3/3.
In regards to what I've gathered from your feedback, nothing seems unordinary from the voltage or electrical components with the stage configuration. I assume you are also using both stages? It would be highly unlikely that 2 stages would have consistent technical problems since the QA process makes simple checks with the StepManiaX software. The sensors are also rated at 3 trillion hit cycles before degradation directly from Interlink with their own QA testing process before they are shipped to our facility.
The FSR sensors normally do not see a physical failure unless excessive moisture is present within the inner membrane of the sensor. I assume this isn't the case since you haven't mentioned liquids or excessive water near the stage during use?I know you had previously added tape modifications since the senvitiy was of concern for you, but just wanted to mention that if too much pressure is applied in the "non press state" of the panel, the auto calibration from the firmware would likely engage, if this threshold is over what you have set within the SMX configuration software, it could contribute to making the sensor appear non-responsive but this is because software thresholds or user configuration override these settings and likely not a technical fault.
Just an idea, have you tried using the stage with the StepManiaX monitor? This might be useful in diagnosing the issue further since the game software controls the stages and might fix anything that is improperly configured manually via the SMX config tool. I would advise trying this with the sensors you believe are "dead" since you might find they are actually working even though they might appear disabled because of software configuration. FYI, it's very unlikely that multiple sensors are being destroyed (especially on multiple stages), so this leaves me to believe it is only software configuration or possible modifications at this time until we can further diagnose via a telephone conversation.
Note: We do know that we have hundreds of machines and stages out in the public, so it might be worth comparing this with your experiences thus far but this is also why I recommend trying the SMX game software to prevent any possible unknown software configuration that could be contributing to what you have experienced thus far.
I hope this information is helpful for you in the meantime. I will have limited access to email until the 9th, but let me know if you have any updates or need any additional guidance and I'll do my best to reply in the meantime.
I admit I was a bit annoyed at the tone of this response. He downplays my issue, says it's unlikely to even have happened, says it might be my fault, and says it's unlikely again. However, overall tone was still helpful and he seemed to want to get to the bottom of the issue.
From 3/3 to 3/13 I worked with Kyle via e-mail and did not post further in the Discord thread. We went through numerous troubleshooting steps and I actually had a few good sets without FSRs dying, but then had another set where multiple FSRs died. I let Kyle know and he replied:
Kyle, 3/13
Unfortunately I don't have a lot of context as to how you have your stage setup, your software threshold settings (you've never shared this) or possible mods you may have done or your expectations.
I know I mentioned the suggestion of tape to you before to increase sensitivity, but based on your description it seems like it may be too much and/or the foam is now compressing more than before (as expected) which is causing the firmware to react against the resting pressure. The raw values display the uncalibrated pressure, but you will definitely experience issues with too much resting pressure on the sensors regardless of the raw or calibrated readings because of the software functionality within the pcb.
Suggestions for diagnosing:
- You can try rebooting the stage to see if anything changes, if something like this occurs in the future. If it does, it means it's related to customized software settings or physical aka too much resting pressure on the sensors and in that case you need to back off the tape applied.
- Alternatively, you can also use your second stage and compare against because the likely hood of a technical hardware fault in 2 stages is not likely and it's likely something isolated that you have setup within your configuration.
This e-mail annoyed me even more than the previous one. I had already shared what mods I had done (2 layers of painter's tape under each sensor, exactly as he instructed me to do in our initial e-mails). I also found it strange he said he didn't have context about “my expectations” when my expectations couldn't have been clearer: I wanted my FSRs to not die.
He emphasized "it's likely something isolated that you have setup within your configuration" which felt almost like direct blame, especially considering that other than the painter's tape, these pads were brand new out of the box. There was no configuration - I just plugged them in and started playing!
At this point I posted further in the Discord thread because I had not updated it since 2/25:
RootReducer — 03/14/2024 9:18 AM
Just an update here - still no concrete advice from support. We've been going back and forth without much resolution. Feeling increasingly frustrated.
Support says:it's likely something isolated that you have setup within your configuration.
which cannot be true - I don't even have anything "configured" - this screenshot is panel off, sensors resting on the PCB
I feel like something is seriously wrong with my pad, but I don't know to what level I need to prove it or continue troubleshooting before I can get an exchange
I do feel like the burden of troubleshooting has been excessively high and I am feeling fatigued by this entire situation
Lightning immediately discredited my experience:
Lightning — 03/14/2024 9:54 AM
You sensors are most certainly not just "dying" - take things one step at a time and see what is available and how they are performing.
This immediate dismissal of the facts was beyond frustrating, especially when it's evident from reading the SMX Discord that I am far from the only customer having this exact same issue.
Joewhitt — 05/18/2024 2:56 PM
FSR died? At least I think that's what happened. In the middle of a song, I just started getting multiple pad misses on the down arrow. Went right over into hardware diagnostics and when pressing the down arrow, the upper sensor was only getting up to about 70, with the others properly going up over 200.
..and another? That's three dead sensors in 3 days. What the shit
dragwassup4 — 05/27/2024 11:22 PM
This exact issue happened to me just now, same arrow and sensor
wiztim — 04/20/2024 9:01 PM
I have a Gen 4 SMX and after a couple years of use, the bottom panel top sensor works half as effective as the rest. I couldn't see anything wrong, recalibrating, restarting, and unplugging it all did nothing. Is there a fix for this, or do I need to replace the sensor entirely?
Chabala - 09/08/2023 4:40 PM
Recently while playing, the top sensor on my down arrow started being very undersensitive. I checked and it's raw value was over 150 so I switched it with another sensor. The next set the new sensor also got a very high raw value so I switched it too. today, three songs in the new sensors got stuck and then revealed a raw value of 230. Is there a way to prevent that to happen again? and is there a way to fix the sensors when their raw value is high?
n_van_leer_drums - 09/19/2023 5:30 PM
My down arrow pcb was acting weird for awhile(intermittently disconnected but not enough to prevent gameplay) and flashed weirdly. I replaced the pcb yesterday thinking it was frying my sensors. but today the innermost sensor died/got stuck at 70 resting amd the outer was stuck on. Videos attached explain in detail. I waited to come here for help but i'm growing very frustrated now that the new pcb is still having a problem…
DRON - 08/28/2023 6:37 PM
Hey, practically all my FSRs have died, I'm out of spares, and the smx parts shops has everything as out of stock right now.
Anyone have alternative FSR solutions, or some spare ones I could buy off them?
ludaddr - 02/01/2023 4:50 PM
Hey everyone, Gen 4 owner here. I've had my gen 4 since the first batch of them went out. Went ahead and upgraded my gen 4 panels and rubber corners to gen 5. Ever since then, I've lost two sensors on the same spot of the down panel. Not sure if it's just bad luck or if the sensors are breaking, or if the pad has a short somewhere.
Not sure what to do here if I'm gonna keep losing sensors.
Dyl — 12/28/2023 7:10 PM
The pads will definitely need sensors before the tournament. I'd be willing to provide them and help get the pads playable, just need proper permission. When I was there, a few of the sensors seemed dead. Even on high sens you'd get a ton of misses
Wafles — 11/13/2023 8:01 AM
Looks like my first FSR sensor died on me. the sensor that died on me is definitely the most abused one on the whole pad (upper edge of down arrow), so not sure if I got unlucky, or if these things are just common with FSR sensors
🪦RIP Monolith F26🪦 — 08/26/2023 2:27 PM
The two fsrs that were dead on mine were 1p right bottom most sensor and 2p left bottom most sensor
yoonjelly — 06/14/2023 3:26 PM
The inner sensor is still working since I've swapped last night (about 21 hours ago), outer sensor won't go higher than a 57, and the two sides are dead with maybe 2 on the scale
There's plenty more of this, but I think I've proved my point. In fact, if we say an average 2-minute song has 750 notes, we'd expect one FSR to die every 4 BILLION songs, or about 15,000 years of continuous gameplay. But if we look at what's actually happening, many players are experiencing dying sensors. There's a clear, endemic issue here and the stance from the SMX team is defensive and deflective.
At this point, I was feeling extremely frustrated and I admit my tone got a bit snappy as I was answering more questions from the team. After a few more messages, I asked:
RootReducer — 03/14/2024 10:05 AM
I am curious - it's been almost a month with no resolution and no improvements. I have been patiently troubleshooting. At what point do we initiate an exchange for a new pad?
I understand that because shipping is expensive, the team wants to run through all possible troubleshooting steps before exchanging
And then got this bombshell:
kevinturner — 03/14/2024 10:22 AM
You can send the stage back at any point, and I think you have attempted quite enough troubleshooting to justify sending it back for an RMA, we just tend to avoid that and narrow down to individual parts because they're easier to ship
Shipping back an entire stage requires setting up your own LTL freight back to Step Revolution
kevinturner — 03/14/2024 10:42 AM
I don't think I have ever seen jumpers read incorrectly, and the sheer number of things getting broken and retaining how they are broken no matter where they are placed really makes me think something is wrong with power in a way that's going to be difficult to diagnose with any tools available
Or the quicker version: getting the tools you'd need to maybe diagnose this and use them correctly is more difficult than setting up LTL freight to send back the stage
RootReducer — 03/14/2024 10:45 AM
how does this work? I sent the video to Kyle as well, so I suppose if he reaches the same conclusion I can ask him about it. Surely you don't mean at my own expense though, right?
kevinturner — 03/14/2024 10:47 AM
according to the warranty as I'm reading it, you are responsible for additional shipping costs. I'm not sure where Kyle draws the line for additional shipping costs
RootReducer 03/14/2024 10:47 AM
I would not call this warranty on parts - this is a completely defective product
Jordan | JBEAN — 03/14/2024 10:49 AM
This is fairly standard in the amusement industry.
RootReducer — 03/14/2024 11:02 AM
I just have to say, I am not in the amusement industry. I'm just a dude who spent $7k already and am feeling frustrated. It would go a long way from the team to say "Hey we know this has been super difficult and we want to make it right, we'll pay for the shipping"
Recall that shipping these pads is on the order of hundreds of dollars, and my pad was defective immediately out of the box. This entire exchange left me feeling defensive and hopeless. I didn't want to pay hundreds of dollars to ship my pad back, especially when the new pad I would get in exchange could have the exact same issues.
At this point, Lightning asked me to do some further troubleshooting. He wanted me to swap the P1 and P2 power supply, and we had a bit of a heated exchange.
Lightning — 03/14/2024 8:41 PM
You have resting pressure on it then, possibly too much tape under, on top if you've done anything to the foam, or if you are cranking down the panel without spacers on it.
At this point I lost my cool a little bit. I had already demonstrated there was no resting pressure, he knew how much tape I had under the sensors, he knew I had not done anything to the foam, and he knew I had not done anything to the panel or the spacers. I felt like he wasn't listening to me at all. It had been nearly a month since I received the pad and I had spent most evenings swapping components and troubleshooting. I was exhausted, frustrated, and emotional.
Luckily, at this point things cooled off and some other community members came in to help. Even though I highly suspected the tape was not an issue, I removed all tape from all sensors. The community brainstormed and mentioned the final failure points we hadn't yet checked were the MCU and power supply, so even though I was nervous about swapping the somewhat delicate hardware, I performed both swaps. The same issues persisted, and I had now taken apart and swapped nearly every part of my brand new pad. I even eventually swapped the 12v-5v step down converter, despite feeling very uncomfortable doing so.
kevinturner — 03/17/2024 10:37 AM
at this point, I have zero ideas beyond underlying wiring on the stage
Lightning — 03/17/2024 4:12 PM
this is... beyond baffling because we've physically moved pieces around and even put entirely different parts into those locations and we still see the same results.
My only actionable thought at this point is if maybe the signal wire (the brown colored wire attached to the PCB) is pinched/smashed/shorting out somewhere within the stage. That would cause erratic triggering.
SenPI (No Bar WR Holder) — 03/18/2024 10:36 AM
but yeah damn dude, that's the last thing I can think of aside from like rewiring the whole damn thing
Lightning — 03/18/2024 5:56 PM
It's driving me insane, because we have swapped working parts to affected areas with zero change, we've swapped basically the entire innards of a known working one into here and still see the same thing
which means it can only be the wiring of some type causing these issues to persist
At this point, Kyle posted in the Discord thread for the first time. He walked through some troubleshooting steps, asked me to take some pictures and videos, and then asked me to RMA the six sensors that had died up to that point. Another SMX Developer, zewt, also joined the thread and started asking me to troubleshoot. After nearly an hour of troubleshooting, he posted:
zewt — 03/18/2024 9:18 PM
Can you swap it with the center panel if you're not using it, or is center center because it was already a swap? (Sorry, I know "swap parts" isn't a very satisfying answer, but trying to at least get you functional, need to head off for the night soon)
RootReducer — 03/18/2024 9:18 PM
it was already a swap
is there any way someone on the team can maybe set up a video call/stream with me sometime?
tech support over text feels a bit difficult and it's been nearly a month now with no resolution@zewt I am not sure if you will be my contact going forward, but if so, I would kindly ask you to at least skim through the thread
zewt — 03/18/2024 9:20 PM
I kindly spent some time doing so :)
My blood pressure was already high but this raised it even higher - it was clear he had not done so based on the questions he was asking. I got flashbacks of call center hell, being endlessly passed around and asked to repeat the same steps and answer the same questions. Electrical issues came up yet again:
zewt — 03/18/2024 9:35 PM
Is there any way there's something shorting the board? (I don't know what that could be, but there's nothing special about where the panel is when it's only connected to power and FSRs)
RootReducer — 03/18/2024 9:35 PM
I don't know - I don't know how to check that
I have already spent nearly 20 hours over the last month following troubleshooting steps, I am really starting to feel fatigued
I am curious, and I can ask Kyle too, at what point can we admit there is something seriously wrong here and RMA the entire stage?
zewt — 03/18/2024 10:10 PM
Up to you, if you want to request an RMA just send an email to support. We really want to know what's going on too, we don't want ghosts in our product
RootReducer— 03/18/2024 10:17 PM
I'm happy to continue troubleshooting if you have additional steps you'd like me to try. I'm off to bed now but I'll look forward to your response tomorrow
I would of course prefer if we could figure out the solution without an RMA but so far multiple people in this thread have mentioned they are out of ideas so I'm not really sure where we go from here
Kyle rejoined the troubleshooting the next day, as the team was closer to thinking there was maybe an issue with one of my PCBs. I went through some more troubleshooting and seemed to maybe for the first time find a real issue. Kyle asked me to RMA my PCB, while also saying it's extremely unlikely it actually failed:
kyleaward — 03/19/2024 9:24 AM
The likelihood of a pcb failure is very low, if something isn't functioning correctly it's usually very apparent without needing this test.
the FSR's have a 3 trillion hit cycle rating from interlink, and usually do not see fast failure. the only exception to this is excessive moisture or the membrane being punctured.
Kyle made it clear he did not want this discussion to continue, as it was clear all parties were fatigued:
kyleaward — 03/19/2024 9:27 AM
@RootReducer Just to be clear, there is no further steps that we can accomplish until your send those parts RMA. They will also be tested here and replacements will be sent. So please proceed to send those things if you want to move forward with resolving.
there is no need to report anything else here or refer to past videos until the RMA is processed. Just making sure that is understood.
Side-note: I had to send the dead FSRs and suspected broken PCB back to Step Revolution at my own expense and wait until they were received before the new parts were sent out to me. In my past experiences with returns, companies typically send replacements parts along with a pre-paid return envelope for the old parts in order to get the customer's purchase working again as quickly as possible.
Kyle also again stressed how rare FSR deaths are.
kyleaward — 03/19/2024 9:32 AM
It's not normal for FSR's to die quickly, if they are it's usually something physically wrong (causing puncture) or excessive moisture. We have machines out since 2017 that have never needed an FSR replacement.
Then, to add some insult to injury, Kyle made sure to let me know I could no longer return or exchange my pads:
kyleaward — 03/27/2024 2:17 PM
Just to summarize and close this thread: @RootReducer your RMA was received yesterday and we will expedite the replacements as requested for you today.
Just as a courtesy reminder (for you), the 30 day return period has past so the return of components is no longer valid and I just wanted to make sure you were aware of this. Of course we will continue to help support anything should you have issues in the future as long as no modifications have occurred outside of what has been communicated via official email, but refund/return/exchange is no longer valid. (Feb 9th)
This was insulting. For the first few weeks of pad ownership I could not get a response from support since Kyle was in Dubai. I spent the entire period from February 15 to March 27 trying to fix my pad. I followed all the troubleshooting instructions, spent evenings swapping nearly every part, waited for RMAs, tape modded the sensors following official directions from support, got blamed for tape modding the sensors, and finally was told that I could no longer return it because the 30-day return period was closed.
No extension, no understanding, no empathy.
At this point I was stuck with the pad, and my only hope was that the RMAed PCB and sensors would fix my issues.
Spoiler Warning: They didn't.
The Fire
Things actually seemed to improve for a while after I got the new PCB. Every once in a while, one of my sensors would die, but I'd swap in a fresh one from the center panel since I wasn't using it, and it was rare enough that I figured it was just the price I'd have to pay. I started getting some great scores and really locking in on the pad, and I was extremely happy. I made it all the way to the 450k club in ITL2024 and the misery of the initial time with my pad was starting to fade in my memory.
Then one day I walked into the garage, turned on my power supply, and my pad was back to factory gifs. No panels responded to touch and I couldn't play at all.
This time I skipped Discord and went straight to support. I sent Kyle some pictures and videos and said it seemed like an MCU issue, so he asked me to take a look.
Turns out one of the cables in the harness connected to the MCU had caught fire at some point (luckily burning itself out).
Kyle wanted to start an RMA right away, but also asked me to try to diagnose the cause.
Kyle 7/19
I can work on an RMA replacement for you but it's important for you to identify the cause (trace it etc) otherwise when you go to replace the part it will just happen again.
There is likely a localized or special circumstance that occurred since it is definitely not a normal situation.
RootReducer 7/19
Do you have any advice about what to search for regarding the cause? The last 4 months or so I haven't changed anything and both stages have been playing like a dream.
Kyle immediately went into defensive deflection, blaming something in the "environment that [my] stage is in":
Unfortunately I don't have a lot of information about the circumstances to be able to tell you exactly where to look. There is likely something that caused it in the environment that your stage is in - which might also be unknown to you. (if you keep it in the garage, moisture among other things that could occur when you aren't present - something of course...)
I got the replacement parts (again, having had to ship the broken parts back at my own expense) on August 6, and told Kyle things were working well after install. He said:
Great to hear that everything is resolved for you now. Take care and dance on happily.
I wonder what happened to “We really want to know what's going on too, we don't want ghosts in our product” - Kyle seemed hardly concerned that a component of my pad literally caught on fire. Had it not gone out on its own, this could have caused significant damage or even burned down my home, but he didn't seem to care.
More Hostility from Kyle
After replacing the MCU and harness, things were once again mostly fine for a few months. I still had the occasional sensor die, but mostly I was dancing happily.
Until my sensors started dying faster than ever. Out of nowhere my down arrow inner sensor started dying at an alarming rate, going from fresh out of the box to dead in sometimes as little as an hour of gameplay. I again sent an e-mail to support. I took care to carefully document the symptoms and attempted troubleshooting steps to avoid going back through the same old song and dance.
FSRs becoming unresponsive at alarming rate
The issue:
In my P1 pad, a new FSR's resting raw value gradually rises from 0 to almost the maximum of 250. This primarily happens in the Down arrow's inner sensor, though it has occasionally occurred in the Right arrow's inner sensor. It has never affected the Left or Up arrows, any other Down or Right slots, or any slots on my P2 pad.How this manifests:
- Initially, all sensors show resting raw values of around 4 with the panel properly installed and tightened.
- Calibrated values display 0 at rest.
- During gameplay, inputs from one arrow (usually Down) suddenly stop registering.
- When checked in the SMX config tool, the affected sensor shows:
- extremely high raw value (over 200)
- A calibrated value that remains at 0
- Due to the high raw value, even maximum force barely increases the calibrated value, > making it impossible to register a press.
The only modding I have done to my Gen5 pad is a few layers of blue painter's tape under each sensor, taking care to make sure they are evenly placed.
What I have already tried:
- Running a dehumidifier 24/7 in the garage where I play
- Swapping PCBs with known working ones (from P1 and P2 pad)
- Swapping the frame with a corner frame
- Rotating and/or swapping the panels
- Replacing the MCU and harness entirely (due to RMA)
- Swapping the MCU with P2
- Swapping the power supply with P2
- Moving the faulty sensors to other slots and arrows, which still show the same raw reading in the config tool
While playing regularly and performing the above tests, I've now had 12 sensors fail in the same fashion.
I am open to trying additional troubleshooting ideas and can provide videos if my explanation needs further clarification.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
In response, I got the following, infuriatingly pedantic and unhelpful reply. That long link is literally a link to a Google search for "FSR creep" which felt like a passive aggressive blow.
Sorry to hear you are experiencing problems and thanks for providing the insight.
Luckily, based on your description further troubleshooting isn't necessary as it seems your description accurately describes the scenario.The issue causing your problem is definitely related to this:
The only modding I have done to my Gen5 pad is a few layers of blue painter's tape under each sensor, taking care to make sure they are evenly placed.
Understand that you believe the tape is "evenly placed" but regardless you need to ensure that resting pressure isn't being applied to the sensor when the panel is installed for normal operation. You can check this in the config tool by making sure the raw value stays 0 and the calibrated value below "10" (4 is usually expected but the number can change based on voltage circumstances) The calibrated value will not change and will remain "0" because the software continues to compensate for this behavior. Normally this isn't a problem unless you have extremely low software thresholds set with higher than normal sensitivity expectations.
Resting pressure can occur from excessive bending/or resting pressure from the panel foam (because the sensor has been raised beyond the expected default design) when the sensor isn't being engaged. SMX's system is designed very differently in comparison to standard arcade switches and if it detects resting pressure it will make the sensor less sensitive to compensate. In some ways, this behavior can be thought of as backwards to regular arcade stages. So using similar mod practice to regular arcade stages will not have great results.
Your issue is being caused by the FSR "creep" which raises the voltage to compensate for the pressure and this would be eliminated without resting pressure on the sensor. It is further exacerbated by whatever your software thresholds are set at; FYI if you have them set very low (for high sensitivity) the creep value will eventually exceed this threshold setting and the value will be nulled out. The expected way to avoid it (and based on the design) is to never have resting pressure on the sensors when you aren't pressing the panels.
If your sensors are becoming damaged (and completely unusable) this would also be caused by whatever modification you are applying with the tape or other circumstance because of this application. It's possible the membrane of the sensor is being damaged or receiving more than expected pressure causing the outcome. Other causes could be moisture but that doesn't seem to be the case with your environment; however the harness replacement you needed suggested something peculiar or abnormal to your environment but I'm guessing you don't have more details about that? (seems to have been a fluke and bad luck)
FYI, Interlink (our sensor provider) QA's the sensors ahead and time and they have a life expectancy of 3 trillion hit cycles before degradation occurs.I understand your frustration with things but if you want to stop the behavior I recommend reevaluating your tape modification to make sure that no part of the panel is receiving resting pressure (raw value) when you aren't pressing the panel. Alternatively it seems the community has other modding guides or even software tweaks for the SMX stages based on needs and I would explore those alternatives if you find them necessary for your specific usage.
I took time to calm myself, but I was frankly enraged. After all this, after the months of troubleshooting, the electrical issues, his entire mod staff and development team being stumped, the cables literally catching fire, and he had the nerve to again try to blame the tape. The same tape mod he recommended. The same tape mod that as of this very day (10/30/2024) his developers are still recommending!
BigBlappa — 10/30/2024 8:58 AM
I've been playing a bit over a month on my home pad breaking it in, probably averaging around an hour a day, but the sensitivity is a bit low for my taste still even on the high setting. Could be a skill issue, but for reference on the sensitivity, I can't activate the pad with arm strength alone. I'm not freakishly strong (6'1/175lbs) but looking up some videos it seems like some people can activate the panel near the edge with just finger pressure. The only way to trigger the panels with my hand is to lean onto it with a significant amount of bodyweight.
Is this the expected amount of sensitivity or should I try some maintenance, loosen or tighten pads or any other simple operation? I don't need extreme sensitivity and I would prefer to avoid anything that will cause long term damage.
Lightning — 10/30/2024 at 9:01 AM
I would look into placing ~2 strips of painters tape UNDER the sensors to raise them up slightly. It's an easy, tunable way to tweak things slightly
At this point, I am 100% convinced Kyle and team will accept no responsibility or ever acknowledge there could be a defect in my pad. I wrote the following response:
I have ensured this and mentioned it in my original e-mail. Initially, with the panel off, calibrated values are all 0 and raw values are all 4 (across all sensors on all panels). This value remains the same after placing the panel and tighten the screws. The value stays the same with or without tape. There is no resting pressure. Calibrated values all show 0. All my thresholds are set to 175 in the SMX config tool.
Note that this issue has never occured on even a single sensor on any arrow in P2 despite modifying it with painter's tape in the exact same way, and has never occurred on P1 left or up despite modifying it with painter's tape in the exact same way.
I think it is reductive to blame the tape (especially when this is something you recommended I do in one of out early e-mail threads):
Outside of this, you can easily add a layer (or 2) of painters tape / packing tape / gaff tape underneath the sensor to create a "shim" to push the sensor upwards
It seems something is very specifically wrong that is affecting the P1 down arrow inner sensor.
Again, to be perfectly clear, there is no extra resting pressure.
Kyle responded:
Your steps that you've described suggest that there could be pressure and "creep". If you've confirmed that isn't the case then OK.
Just to be clear, in previous correspondences with you there has been communication error misunderstanding or discrepancy as well. So if you've confirmed there isn't resting pressure with the panel off and the sensor isn't being bent excessively or damage to the membrane; this is good.
I was upset to read about our past "communication error misunderstanding or discrepancy" because at this point I felt as if the team was almost purposefully misinterpreting or directly ignoring issues. Blaming issues on my communication felt like another unnecessary personal attack.
The e-mail continued with further troubleshooting steps, and at this point, I well and truly gave up. I closed the e-mail, and decided to sell my pad and buy a B2L. Kyle had successfully ground my spirit down into dust and made me give up. All told, I had 16 sensors die and I wasn't looking forward to buying from the SMX store for a exorbitant $14 a pop. 200mm FSRs direct from Interlink are $3.99 and it feels hard to justify the extra $10 for a no-solder connection.
Just the thought of replying to his condescending e-mail made my heart rate rise and cheeks flush. I was tired of explaining myself. I was tired of troubleshooting. I knew we were done.
Luckily, a few days later, a dance game angel descended from the sky granted me the blessing of a working pad.
Adrunio Mod and Freedom from the Curse
Top 10 ITG player VivaLaMoo recently upgraded their SMX setup to an ITG2 dedicab pad, but before that they had been frustrated at the SMX internals, and had switched to using an Arduino Leonardo with teejusb's FSR firmware. They had seen my frustrated posting on the ITC Discord and let me know they planned to be in my area in a few weeks. They offered to come to my house and Arduino mod my pad. At this point I felt I had nothing to lose (plus we'd get to hang out no matter what, which would be fun!)
They had me order some relatively inexpensive supplies, and over the course of a few hours, we routed the inner sensor on each arrow to a breadboard connected to an Arduino and installed the firmware. It was relatively easy, and would have been easier if I had taken off the frames instead of stubbornly trying to route the loose cables through the intricate framework of the pad.
We hooked it all up, and it just. worked. The sensors that the SMX software read as dead? All alive, and perfectly healthy. No issues whatsoever. Proof the SMX software itself or the electrical components were the issue.
I've been playing for a bit now and the pad feels better than ever. I am not sure if the SMX software was causing early judgments but it sure feels like it because my mean average error immediately decreased after the swap. Most importantly, my sensors aren't dying any longer.
I wish I had done this the very first day I started having problems. It's so strange - now the only parts of my pad the SMX team actually built is the metal frame and the panels. I no longer use the PCBs, the MCU, the AC adapter, the LED lights, or the power cable. I basically paid 2k for a shell. But it's a working shell, and it's mine. And if anything goes wrong, I never have to talk to the SMX team again because I can fix it myself.
How this should have all gone down
I am not a business owner. But I can think about how I'd run my business if I was one. If I were Kyle, and saw the Discord thread with almost 800 posts where for an entire month, nobody in the community - including my moderators and even my own development team - could figure out what was wrong with a pad, suggested there might be underlying electrical issues, and then it even caught on fire, I would have offered to ship out a brand new pad, on my own dime. It would have gone something like this:
Thank you so much for your patience during this troubleshooting process. You've gone above and beyond what we typically ask customers to do when troubleshooting, and I'm so sorry you're still having issues months after receiving your pad.
We want you to have the best experience possible, and we also want to understand what caused these problems. We are going to send you a new pad. When you receive it, put the old pad in the box and send it back to us - we will pay the shipping costs both ways as this is an extraordinary situation.
Again, we're so sorry you've had so much trouble with this pad. I told you I was confident that you'd enjoy everything and have a great experience, and I still am.
Would that have been so hard? Why did I have go through so much stress and tribulation?
I've never had such an awful experience buying a product in my life, and I can't think of any other major purchase with this many issues where the seller did not immediately make it right.
The SMX team clearly does not care about the individual customer and is focused solely on major distributors, and I think they should stop selling to private owners unless they are willing to hire a dedicated support team, who will help customers with empathy and kindness.
I will never buy another SMX pad, and if you're reading this, I hope you won't either. Thankfully, with L-TEK, B2L, Galaxi Pad, and now Yuancon in the mix, more affordable, available, and dependable pads are on the market.
Thanks
Thank you to the mostly awesome SMX community members who helped me for weeks every night out of the goodness of their hearts. JellySlosh, SenPi, werdwerdus, and kevinturner especially were kind, patient, knowledgeable, and truly wanted to help me get to the bottom of my issue. Thanks to Jasmine for helping me rewire my Barkus pad. Thanks to VivaLaMoo for their incredible generosity and kindness. Thanks to fifi for proofreading this monster. Thanks to ITC, Dimo's Dojo, and Kigha's Discord servers and all the wonderful people in them who listened to almost a year (!) of me complaining about my awful pad luck and never told me to go away or shut up. Thanks to all the homies who kept me sane when I was losing my temper on Twitch every time another sensor died in the middle of a PB run.
I love you all. May your white counts be low and your stam numbers high. Peace.